Discussion:
lose weight on vegetarian diet?
(too old to reply)
magnulus
2004-10-11 02:59:52 UTC
Permalink
It might be hard to believe, but there are overweight vegetarians out
there. I am one of them. Heart disease doesn't run in my family (though
high blood pressure does), but it's always nice to fit into smaller clothes
(I have about 10 pairs of pants just waiting for me to be able to fit into
them again). I have weighed as much as 225 lbs. I used to take some drugs
that made me gain weight and crave food constantly (now I don't take the
drugs anymore, and I don't have health insurance for that matter), and even
since I have been overweight. I also practiced martial arts and spent about
an hour a day a few times a week punching a punching bag, jumping rope,
etc.. A knee injury cause me to stop physical activity altogether many
years ago and I avoided walking to let it heal (today, I still have some
bursitis in that knee if I stand around too long), for several months, and I
packed on weight. I tend to pack on weight around the winter holidays, too.
I tend to eat more in the winter, period. Maybe it's because I feel more
down during the winter.

I lost weight a few months ago, and was down to 204. I started going to
the driving range and practicing golfing a few times a week (in the summer
this can get "quite" hot, even going in the evening), and this winter I hope
to go golfing on a real course for the first time in my life (I've been a
fan of computer golf games, but I wanted to try it in real life, despite the
fact it's not cheap). But I wasn't really losing weight very quickly. I
was eating alot of breads or starch foods, and pizza. I ate whole wheat
bread, though, usually with some margarine spread or hummus, also
occasionally peanut butter and molasses/jelly sandwiches.

Recently I've lost about 6-8 pounds, and my BMI is now at the "non-obese"
level, my weight is 195 lbs. I'm about 5-9 or so. I've been eating more
green salads and tried cutting down on how much bread and starch I eat- now
I only eat about 2 slices a day of bread, and maybe only a little potatoes,
rice, or chips. Occasionally I eat a can of vegetarian chili, or I make a
curry (but I don't go overboard on the rice). I never really liked salad
much, it was flavorless and I always thought it was unsatisfying to eat.
But I've been eating spinach salads and romaine lettuce salads, and I make
my own Italian dressing using olive oil, balsamic vinegar, and some flaxseed
oil, and I put some cheese and almonds on top- I just wish good lettuce were
cheaper and salad were more convenient. I also have been eating bread with
olive tapenade spreads, and I stopped eating pizza so much (it was
convenient to cook). I drink about 6-8 cups of tea or coffee a day.
Occasionaly I go to Subway and buy a sandwich there (Burger King in my area
stopped selling BK veg. burgers).

I'm not really exercising too much, I haven't been to the driving range in
weeks, but I'm still losing weight. My knees don't bother me so much,
though I still have to watch "standing around" for long periods (walking
doesn't bother me so much), and when I go to the driving range, I usually
take an ibuprofen because I'll be a bit sore afterwards otherwise. It
really sucks to have all these joint problems and only be 28.

I feel OK... I don't have food cravings as much anymore, which I used to.
But sometimes I feel a little light-headed or weak.
Ben A. Green
2004-10-11 05:21:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by magnulus
It might be hard to believe, but there are overweight vegetarians out
there. I am one of them.
The hardest part of being a healthy vegetarian is to get enough complete
protein. Your food as you describe it has very little protein, coming
mainly from cheese. Protein from vegetable sources tends to be incomplete,
in that it does not incude all the essential amino acids in the needed
proportions.

Why do you want to be a vegetarian if it is not working out for you?

Ben
Steve
2004-10-11 11:05:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben A. Green
The hardest part of being a healthy vegetarian is to get enough complete
protein.
This is outdated information and not true:

http://www.veganhealth.org


Steve
--
Be A Healthy Vegan Or Vegetarian
http://www.geocities.com/beforewisdom/Veg/healthyVeg.html

Steve's Home Page
http://www.geocities.com/beforewisdom/

"The great American thought trap: It is not real
unless it can be seen on television or bought in a
shopping mall"
magnulus
2004-10-12 01:46:10 UTC
Permalink
I have been a vegetarian for ten years or so... and I was a
semi-vegetarian in my adolescence, only eating fish. I wasn't overweight
and it's worked for me for a long time. Only within the last 5 years or so
have I had weight problems.

If I wasn't getting enough protein from being a vegetarian, I should think
I would be dead by now.
Piezo Guru
2004-10-16 03:58:52 UTC
Permalink
Are you sure you are not?
Post by magnulus
I have been a vegetarian for ten years or so... and I was a
semi-vegetarian in my adolescence, only eating fish. I wasn't overweight
and it's worked for me for a long time. Only within the last 5 years or so
have I had weight problems.
If I wasn't getting enough protein from being a vegetarian, I should think
I would be dead by now.
magnulus
2004-10-16 06:44:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Piezo Guru
Are you sure you are not?
Why would I be unsure? My hair is growing just fine, my nails are fine-
if I wasn't getting enough protein my hair wouldn't grow, would it?
Piezo Guru
2004-10-16 16:21:46 UTC
Permalink
Well, you are posting so you cannot be dead in the medical sense.
Post by magnulus
Post by Piezo Guru
Are you sure you are not?
Why would I be unsure? My hair is growing just fine, my nails are fine-
if I wasn't getting enough protein my hair wouldn't grow, would it?
magnulus
2004-10-12 03:53:27 UTC
Permalink
I get the protein crap all the time, and it is simply a myth that
vegetarian diets are so low in protein that they aren't adequate. The body,
and muscles, are built mostly upon water. The lining of cells are made from
fats. Human breast milk is only 5 percent protein.

A bigger risk of vegetarian/vegan dieting is low B-12 (and even then,
there's a very simple solution). Not because frank B-12 deficiency is
common among vegetarians- it isn't, but becaues B-12 deficiency's
consequences can be irreversable, especially to children. Meat eaters can
also get B-12 deficiency, though it is caused by malabsorbtion more often
(especially in the elderly). The best natural food source of B-12 for meat
eaters, is actually liver- not a very popular meat from what I have observed
(BTW, animals don't make B-12, bacteria that live in them make B-12 in their
guts). For vegetarians, there aren't actually many "good" natural source of
B-12, though most ovo-lacto vegetarians won't have B-12 deficiency (the
body's gut bacteria actually make some, a small amount will be present on
the surface of organic foods or sprouts, and dairy and eggs have some as
well) Nutritional yeast usually contains some bioavailable B-12 in good
amounts. The best way is to simply take a multivitamin or eat food
fortified with B-12 (almost any "meat substitute", such as soy burgers,
texturized vegetable protein, many soymilks, Quorn, etc.), or take a large
supplement (200-2,000 mcg or so) of B-12 weekly or monthly.

Now, the myth that vegetarians get enough protein, or that their diet is
inadequate, is still widespread. Society, and social workers, in
particular, often view vegetarian parents with suspicion, just a step away
from child abuse. Especially if the children are a few inches shorter than
their peers, which, IMO, is not abnormal (Asians are often short statured
too, and much of it is attributed to a lower-energy diet). Yet millions of
parents are feeding their omnivorous kids blatantly unhealthy foods, many
children already have signs of diabetes and heart disease, and society
doesn't give the same level of scrutiny to their "abuse". In reality,
almost all cases of malnourished vegetarian children are due to "raw food"
regimes, or similarly hyper-restrictive diets. The people aren't being
neglectful in the traditional sense- often the people hold intensely
paranoid, insular beliefs, but they really believe they are doing the best
for their children. Raw food simply won't provide the energy intake that a
child will need to thrive at all (often, children do better on lower fiber
diets than adults, too). This is why the natural hygenist movement is
moving more towards allowing cooked tubers in their diet.
tcomeau
2004-10-12 14:10:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by magnulus
I get the protein crap all the time, and it is simply a myth that
vegetarian diets are so low in protein that they aren't adequate. The body,
and muscles, are built mostly upon water. The lining of cells are made from
fats. Human breast milk is only 5 percent protein.
It is not a concern about the amount of protein, it is a concern about
specific essential proteins, as well as specific essential fats and
specific vitamins that, by definition, are essential.

No vegetarian diet can provide all the essential proteins, fats and
micro-nutrients and for idiots to come onto a science forum and try to
say otherwise is plainly ridiculous. Animal source foods are essential
for optimum health.

TC
Granny Smith
2004-10-12 19:10:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by tcomeau
Post by magnulus
I get the protein crap all the time, and it is simply a myth that
vegetarian diets are so low in protein that they aren't adequate. The body,
and muscles, are built mostly upon water. The lining of cells are made from
fats. Human breast milk is only 5 percent protein.
It is not a concern about the amount of protein, it is a concern about
specific essential proteins, as well as specific essential fats and
specific vitamins that, by definition, are essential.
No vegetarian diet can provide all the essential proteins, fats and
micro-nutrients and for idiots to come onto a science forum and try to
say otherwise is plainly ridiculous. Animal source foods are essential
for optimum health.
or on the other hand for a 'knowitall' know nothing troll to come into
rec.food.veg and spout utter nonsense...
By the way knowall
I am 95 and I've ate vegetarian all my life, never tasted meat or any food
that contains animal produce. I am as fit and healthy as most people half my
age.
I've just finished my daily 20 mile cycle ride that's after a twenty minute
sea swim in very cold water, I do that every day rain, shine or snow.
I've never had a day's sickness in my life unless you count hangovers and
tomorrow I'm doing a 25 mile walk.
Protein? I get plenty from a varied vegetarian diet.
Bill Clinton
2004-10-13 06:44:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Granny Smith
Post by tcomeau
Post by magnulus
I get the protein crap all the time, and it is simply a myth that
vegetarian diets are so low in protein that they aren't adequate. The
body,
Post by tcomeau
Post by magnulus
and muscles, are built mostly upon water. The lining of cells are
made
Post by Granny Smith
from
Post by tcomeau
Post by magnulus
fats. Human breast milk is only 5 percent protein.
It is not a concern about the amount of protein, it is a concern about
specific essential proteins, as well as specific essential fats and
specific vitamins that, by definition, are essential.
No vegetarian diet can provide all the essential proteins, fats and
micro-nutrients and for idiots to come onto a science forum and try to
say otherwise is plainly ridiculous. Animal source foods are essential
for optimum health.
or on the other hand for a 'knowitall' know nothing troll to come into
rec.food.veg and spout utter nonsense...
By the way knowall
I am 95 and I've ate vegetarian all my life, never tasted meat or any food
that contains animal produce. I am as fit and healthy as most people half my
age.
I've just finished my daily 20 mile cycle ride that's after a twenty minute
sea swim in very cold water, I do that every day rain, shine or snow.
I've never had a day's sickness in my life unless you count hangovers and
tomorrow I'm doing a 25 mile walk.
Protein? I get plenty from a varied vegetarian diet.
No mother's milk? No dairy? No fish? No jello or
gelatin? No B-12 capsules? No grain weevil parts?
No preformed vitamin A supplements? No vitamin
D3 supplements?

Why should I believe you? How do I know
I am not being trolled?
Steve
2004-10-12 19:47:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by tcomeau
No vegetarian diet can provide all the essential proteins, fats and
micro-nutrients
You might want to read the "position paper on vegetarianism" from The
American Dietetic Association:
http://www.eatright.org/Public/GovernmentAffairs/92_17084.cfm


Steve
http://www.geocities.com/beforewisdom/

Be a healthy Vegan or Vegetarian
http://geocities.com/beforewisdom/Veg/healthyVeg.html

"The great American thought trap: It is not real unless it can be seen
on television or bought in a shopping mall"
magnulus
2004-10-13 02:27:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by tcomeau
It is not a concern about the amount of protein, it is a concern about
specific essential proteins
There are 8 essential proteins, right? Well, a vegetarian diet can
provide all of them. What exactly is this mystery protein the vegetarian
diet lacks?
Post by tcomeau
as well as specific essential fats
A vegetarian diet can provide all of them. Flax seed and green leaf
vegetables are good sources of essential fatty acids. The only good
source of essential fatty acids for meat is cold water fish (beef, chicken,
etc., have almost none).
Post by tcomeau
and
specific vitamins that, by definition, are essential.
And, like I said, there's only one vitamin that vegetarians should be
concerned about... and much of our food is already fortified with it
anyways.
GMCarter
2004-10-13 10:11:09 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 22:27:42 -0400, "magnulus"
Post by magnulus
Post by tcomeau
It is not a concern about the amount of protein, it is a concern about
specific essential proteins
There are 8 essential proteins, right? Well, a vegetarian diet can
provide all of them. What exactly is this mystery protein the vegetarian
diet lacks?
Actually, proteins--and there are millions--are composed of amino
acids. There are an array of 20 amino acids that make up all the
proteins in any body (whether a paramecium, an oak tree or us). Some
the body synthesizes; others need to be acquired from consumed foods
and are thus "essential" amino acids.

Here's a good review.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amino_acid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_amino_acid

The thing to consider is how diverse one's diet is. As a vegetarian,
MOST of these amino acids can indeed be obtained. Otherwise, use of a
supplement like a whey protein may help (especially for cysteine).

George M. Carter
magnulus
2004-10-13 10:22:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by GMCarter
Actually, proteins--and there are millions--are composed of amino
acids. There are an array of 20 amino acids that make up all the
proteins in any body (whether a paramecium, an oak tree or us). Some
the body synthesizes; others need to be acquired from consumed foods
and are thus "essential" amino acids.
I forgot about that. There are tyrosine, tryptophan, etc.

I like I was saying... if a vegetarian diet were not nutrative... I would
be dead by now, and definitely not overweight.
tcomeau
2004-10-13 15:59:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by GMCarter
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 22:27:42 -0400, "magnulus"
Post by magnulus
Post by tcomeau
It is not a concern about the amount of protein, it is a concern about
specific essential proteins
There are 8 essential proteins, right? Well, a vegetarian diet can
provide all of them. What exactly is this mystery protein the vegetarian
diet lacks?
Actually, proteins--and there are millions--are composed of amino
acids. There are an array of 20 amino acids that make up all the
proteins in any body (whether a paramecium, an oak tree or us). Some
the body synthesizes; others need to be acquired from consumed foods
and are thus "essential" amino acids.
Here's a good review.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amino_acid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_amino_acid
The thing to consider is how diverse one's diet is. As a vegetarian,
MOST of these amino acids can indeed be obtained. Otherwise, use of a
supplement like a whey protein may help (especially for cysteine).
George M. Carter
It is indeed a very complex and diverse group of nutrients that we
humans need.

I high;y doubt that even the most educated vegetarian can manage a
diet without animal source foods and ensure that they get the optimum
amounts of each essential nutrient. And I know that the typical
vegetarian can't do it and the typical teenage or child vegetarian has
no clue.

TC
Steve
2004-10-13 16:51:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by tcomeau
It is indeed a very complex and diverse group of nutrients that we
humans need.
It is not.
Post by tcomeau
I high;y doubt that even the most educated vegetarian can manage a
diet without animal source foods and ensure that they get the optimum
amounts of each essential nutrient. And I know that the typical
vegetarian can't do it and the typical teenage or child vegetarian has
no clue.
The American Dietetic Association contradicts your opinion
http://www.eatright.org/Public/GovernmentAffairs/92_17084.cfm

Who are you? Are you an M.D., an R.D. or otherwise degreed in a health
science/medical related field?
tcomeau
2004-10-14 15:29:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve
Post by tcomeau
It is indeed a very complex and diverse group of nutrients that we
humans need.
It is not.
Post by tcomeau
I high;y doubt that even the most educated vegetarian can manage a
diet without animal source foods and ensure that they get the optimum
amounts of each essential nutrient. And I know that the typical
vegetarian can't do it and the typical teenage or child vegetarian has
no clue.
The American Dietetic Association contradicts your opinion
http://www.eatright.org/Public/GovernmentAffairs/92_17084.cfm
Who are you? Are you an M.D., an R.D. or otherwise degreed in a health
science/medical related field?
The more important question is who I am not. I am not affilated with
the food and pharma industry. Unlike the American Dietetic Association
whose opinion you value so highly.

Here is some info about the ADA:

***

source:
http://www.cspinet.org/integrity/nonprofits/american_dietetic_association.html

Non-Profit Organizations Receiving Corporate Funding
Index of Non-Profit Organizations Receiving Corporate Funding

AMERICAN DIETETIC ASSOCIATION

A public policy workshop held in March 2001 was sponsored by American
Soy Products, California Dried Plum Board, Egg Nutrition Center, Food
Marketing Institute, Grocery Manufacturers of America, Kashi, National
Soft Drink Association, Sodexho, and Marriott Services. (ADA Courier,
5/01)

Published a "Biotechnology Resource Kit," which was funded by the
Council for Biotechnology Information." (ADA "Dear Member" letter;
2000)

[See entry for Council for Biotechnology Information]

ADA and DuPont have an agreement that enables ADA to place nutrition
information on the web site http://www.webmd.com/. Dupont is an
investor in WebMD. (ADA Press Release, 10/16/00)

In fiscal year 2000, the following companies contributed $10,000 or
more: BASF Corp., Bristol Myers/Squibb, California Avocado Company,
The Catfish Institute, ConAgra Foods, DMI Management, EcoLab, Galaxy
Nutritional Foods, Gerber Products Company, Kellogg, Knoll
Pharmaceuticals, Lipton, Mars, Inc., Mead Johnson Nutritionals, McNeil
Consumer Products Company, Monsanto, National Cattlemen's Beef
Association, National Dairy Council, National Fisheries Institute,
National Pasta Association, The Peanut Institute, Potato Board,
Procter & Gamble, Roche Pharmaceuticals, Ross Products Division,
Abbott Laboratories, Viactiv, Worthington Foods. (ADA/ADAF 2000 Annual
Report, http://www.eat right.org/; November 11, 2000)

ADA and American Pharmaceutical Association (pharmacists) announced a
joint consumer-education program on supplements; it is funded by
Monsanto Life Sciences Company (press release, 11/8/99).

The ADA co-produced, with funding from the ConAgra Foundation, a
packet of information on food safety titled "Home Food Safety: It's in
Your Hands." (Funding disclosed on packet on file at CSPI, Nov. 1999)

The American Dietetic Association has announced that it will be
seeking to endorse food products (Nov.-Dec. 1997 ADA Courier).

The American Dietetic Association has received funding from numerous
companies and receives underwriting for "fact sheets" on topics
related to the companies' products. Major ($100,000+) donors include:
Kellogg, Kraft Foods, Weight Watchers International, Campbell Soup,
National Dairy Council, Nestlé USA, Ross Products Division of Abbott
Labs., Sandoz, Coca-Cola, Florida Department of Citrus, General Mills,
Monsanto, Nabisco, Procter & Gamble, Uncle Ben's, Wyeth-Ayerst Labs.
(Nov-Dec 1996 ADA Courier)

The following companies and organizations sponsored information
sessions at the ADA's 2002 Food and Nutrition Conference, held in
Philadelphia, PA:

Almond Board of California
American Egg Board/Egg Nutrition Center
Aramark
ADM Kao LLC
Balance Bar Company
ConAgra Foods
DuPont Protein Technologies
General Mills
Gatorade Company
Gerber Products Company
H.J. Heinz
Hormel
Internationl Food Information Council
International Life Sciences Institute
Mars, Inc.
McNeil Nutritionals
MET-Rx
National Cattlemen's Beef Association
National Dairy Council
Pharmavite
Procter and Gamble
Quaker Oats
Ross Product Division
Sodexho Health Care Services
Sysco Corporation
United Soybean Board
United States Potato Board
Wheat Foods Council
(http://www.eatright.org/fnce/sponsors02.html; accessed 2/24/03)

In 2002, the ADA entered into a partnership with Gerber Products
Company to form the Start Healthy Nutrition Advisory Panel. The panel
includes both experts from Gerber and ADA.
(http://www.eatright.com/pr/2002/102102.html; accessed 2/24/03)

****

COUNCIL FOR BIOTECHNOLOGY INFORMATION

According to its website, the mission of the Council for Biotechnology
Information is to improve understanding and acceptance of
biotechnology by collecting balanced, science-based information and
communicating it through a variety of channels. The founding member
companies are BASF, Bayer CropScience, Dow, DuPont, Monsanto and
Syngenta and two trade associations, the Biotechnology Industry
Organization and CropLife America.
(http://www.whybiotech.com/index.asp?id=1644; accessed 2/24/03)

***

You've been sold a bill of goods, my friend. The ADA's priority is not
your health, it is the sale of primarily carbohydrate manufactured
foods, and they appear to be specifically targeting you vegetarians.

TC
Steve
2004-10-14 17:51:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by tcomeau
The more important question is who I am not.
No it isn't. You have not given any medical or professional credentials
so that people can evaluate your opinion. You have not even given a name.

The American Dietetic Association is an association of degreed
professionals whose opinion is based on research.

You can say that the ADA has corporate input but so does the USDA and
many other government orgs but your point is moot.

The ADA position paper on vegetarianism isn't advocating the foods
produced by the list of companies you quoted.

You are also not disputing the USDA statements that fit with your
opinion eventhough they have corporate involvement ( a lot more then the
ADA ).

In short you are a nameless, credentialist person disputing the
conclusion reached by the research of an association of degreed
professionals.

Given the manner and invective of the way you have been experessing your
opinions I would say you are some crank trying to get a rise out of
vegetarians.

Your opinion has no basis in facts so at this point it is not even worth
replying to you.

I'll let you have the last word.

I am not affilated with
Post by tcomeau
the food and pharma industry. Unlike the American Dietetic Association
whose opinion you value so highly.
***
http://www.cspinet.org/integrity/nonprofits/american_dietetic_association.html
Non-Profit Organizations Receiving Corporate Funding
Index of Non-Profit Organizations Receiving Corporate Funding
AMERICAN DIETETIC ASSOCIATION
A public policy workshop held in March 2001 was sponsored by American
Soy Products, California Dried Plum Board, Egg Nutrition Center, Food
Marketing Institute, Grocery Manufacturers of America, Kashi, National
Soft Drink Association, Sodexho, and Marriott Services. (ADA Courier,
5/01)
Published a "Biotechnology Resource Kit," which was funded by the
Council for Biotechnology Information." (ADA "Dear Member" letter;
2000)
[See entry for Council for Biotechnology Information]
ADA and DuPont have an agreement that enables ADA to place nutrition
information on the web site http://www.webmd.com/. Dupont is an
investor in WebMD. (ADA Press Release, 10/16/00)
In fiscal year 2000, the following companies contributed $10,000 or
more: BASF Corp., Bristol Myers/Squibb, California Avocado Company,
The Catfish Institute, ConAgra Foods, DMI Management, EcoLab, Galaxy
Nutritional Foods, Gerber Products Company, Kellogg, Knoll
Pharmaceuticals, Lipton, Mars, Inc., Mead Johnson Nutritionals, McNeil
Consumer Products Company, Monsanto, National Cattlemen's Beef
Association, National Dairy Council, National Fisheries Institute,
National Pasta Association, The Peanut Institute, Potato Board,
Procter & Gamble, Roche Pharmaceuticals, Ross Products Division,
Abbott Laboratories, Viactiv, Worthington Foods. (ADA/ADAF 2000 Annual
Report, http://www.eat right.org/; November 11, 2000)
ADA and American Pharmaceutical Association (pharmacists) announced a
joint consumer-education program on supplements; it is funded by
Monsanto Life Sciences Company (press release, 11/8/99).
The ADA co-produced, with funding from the ConAgra Foundation, a
packet of information on food safety titled "Home Food Safety: It's in
Your Hands." (Funding disclosed on packet on file at CSPI, Nov. 1999)
The American Dietetic Association has announced that it will be
seeking to endorse food products (Nov.-Dec. 1997 ADA Courier).
The American Dietetic Association has received funding from numerous
companies and receives underwriting for "fact sheets" on topics
Kellogg, Kraft Foods, Weight Watchers International, Campbell Soup,
National Dairy Council, Nestlé USA, Ross Products Division of Abbott
Labs., Sandoz, Coca-Cola, Florida Department of Citrus, General Mills,
Monsanto, Nabisco, Procter & Gamble, Uncle Ben's, Wyeth-Ayerst Labs.
(Nov-Dec 1996 ADA Courier)
The following companies and organizations sponsored information
sessions at the ADA's 2002 Food and Nutrition Conference, held in
Almond Board of California
American Egg Board/Egg Nutrition Center
Aramark
ADM Kao LLC
Balance Bar Company
ConAgra Foods
DuPont Protein Technologies
General Mills
Gatorade Company
Gerber Products Company
H.J. Heinz
Hormel
Internationl Food Information Council
International Life Sciences Institute
Mars, Inc.
McNeil Nutritionals
MET-Rx
National Cattlemen's Beef Association
National Dairy Council
Pharmavite
Procter and Gamble
Quaker Oats
Ross Product Division
Sodexho Health Care Services
Sysco Corporation
United Soybean Board
United States Potato Board
Wheat Foods Council
(http://www.eatright.org/fnce/sponsors02.html; accessed 2/24/03)
In 2002, the ADA entered into a partnership with Gerber Products
Company to form the Start Healthy Nutrition Advisory Panel. The panel
includes both experts from Gerber and ADA.
(http://www.eatright.com/pr/2002/102102.html; accessed 2/24/03)
****
COUNCIL FOR BIOTECHNOLOGY INFORMATION
According to its website, the mission of the Council for Biotechnology
Information is to improve understanding and acceptance of
biotechnology by collecting balanced, science-based information and
communicating it through a variety of channels. The founding member
companies are BASF, Bayer CropScience, Dow, DuPont, Monsanto and
Syngenta and two trade associations, the Biotechnology Industry
Organization and CropLife America.
(http://www.whybiotech.com/index.asp?id=1644; accessed 2/24/03)
***
You've been sold a bill of goods, my friend. The ADA's priority is not
your health, it is the sale of primarily carbohydrate manufactured
foods, and they appear to be specifically targeting you vegetarians.
TC
--
Steve
http://www.geocities.com/beforewisdom/

Be a healthy Vegan or Vegetarian
http://geocities.com/beforewisdom/Veg/healthyVeg.html

"The great American thought trap: It is not real unless it can be seen
on television or bought in a shopping mall"
Robert
2004-10-14 18:52:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve
Post by tcomeau
The more important question is who I am not.
No it isn't. You have not given any medical or professional credentials
so that people can evaluate your opinion. You have not even given a name.
You are not familiar with TC's writing as you would not be asking that
question. No one would can confuse TC with being an MD or anything closely
related to the medical sciences.
He has an advanced degree from online postings on conspiracy theories. He,
like his canadian friends, makes him eligible to be a health minister in
canada.
Post by Steve
The American Dietetic Association is an association of degreed
professionals whose opinion is based on research.
You can say that the ADA has corporate input but so does the USDA and
many other government orgs but your point is moot.
The ADA position paper on vegetarianism isn't advocating the foods
produced by the list of companies you quoted.
You are also not disputing the USDA statements that fit with your
opinion eventhough they have corporate involvement ( a lot more then the
ADA ).
In short you are a nameless, credentialist person disputing the
conclusion reached by the research of an association of degreed
professionals.
Given the manner and invective of the way you have been experessing your
opinions I would say you are some crank trying to get a rise out of
vegetarians.
Your opinion has no basis in facts so at this point it is not even worth
replying to you.
I'll let you have the last word.
I am not affilated with
Post by tcomeau
the food and pharma industry. Unlike the American Dietetic Association
whose opinion you value so highly.
***
http://www.cspinet.org/integrity/nonprofits/american_dietetic_association.html
Post by Steve
Post by tcomeau
Non-Profit Organizations Receiving Corporate Funding
Index of Non-Profit Organizations Receiving Corporate Funding
AMERICAN DIETETIC ASSOCIATION
A public policy workshop held in March 2001 was sponsored by American
Soy Products, California Dried Plum Board, Egg Nutrition Center, Food
Marketing Institute, Grocery Manufacturers of America, Kashi, National
Soft Drink Association, Sodexho, and Marriott Services. (ADA Courier,
5/01)
Published a "Biotechnology Resource Kit," which was funded by the
Council for Biotechnology Information." (ADA "Dear Member" letter;
2000)
[See entry for Council for Biotechnology Information]
ADA and DuPont have an agreement that enables ADA to place nutrition
information on the web site http://www.webmd.com/. Dupont is an
investor in WebMD. (ADA Press Release, 10/16/00)
In fiscal year 2000, the following companies contributed $10,000 or
more: BASF Corp., Bristol Myers/Squibb, California Avocado Company,
The Catfish Institute, ConAgra Foods, DMI Management, EcoLab, Galaxy
Nutritional Foods, Gerber Products Company, Kellogg, Knoll
Pharmaceuticals, Lipton, Mars, Inc., Mead Johnson Nutritionals, McNeil
Consumer Products Company, Monsanto, National Cattlemen's Beef
Association, National Dairy Council, National Fisheries Institute,
National Pasta Association, The Peanut Institute, Potato Board,
Procter & Gamble, Roche Pharmaceuticals, Ross Products Division,
Abbott Laboratories, Viactiv, Worthington Foods. (ADA/ADAF 2000 Annual
Report, http://www.eat right.org/; November 11, 2000)
ADA and American Pharmaceutical Association (pharmacists) announced a
joint consumer-education program on supplements; it is funded by
Monsanto Life Sciences Company (press release, 11/8/99).
The ADA co-produced, with funding from the ConAgra Foundation, a
packet of information on food safety titled "Home Food Safety: It's in
Your Hands." (Funding disclosed on packet on file at CSPI, Nov. 1999)
The American Dietetic Association has announced that it will be
seeking to endorse food products (Nov.-Dec. 1997 ADA Courier).
The American Dietetic Association has received funding from numerous
companies and receives underwriting for "fact sheets" on topics
Kellogg, Kraft Foods, Weight Watchers International, Campbell Soup,
National Dairy Council, Nestlé USA, Ross Products Division of Abbott
Labs., Sandoz, Coca-Cola, Florida Department of Citrus, General Mills,
Monsanto, Nabisco, Procter & Gamble, Uncle Ben's, Wyeth-Ayerst Labs.
(Nov-Dec 1996 ADA Courier)
The following companies and organizations sponsored information
sessions at the ADA's 2002 Food and Nutrition Conference, held in
Almond Board of California
American Egg Board/Egg Nutrition Center
Aramark
ADM Kao LLC
Balance Bar Company
ConAgra Foods
DuPont Protein Technologies
General Mills
Gatorade Company
Gerber Products Company
H.J. Heinz
Hormel
Internationl Food Information Council
International Life Sciences Institute
Mars, Inc.
McNeil Nutritionals
MET-Rx
National Cattlemen's Beef Association
National Dairy Council
Pharmavite
Procter and Gamble
Quaker Oats
Ross Product Division
Sodexho Health Care Services
Sysco Corporation
United Soybean Board
United States Potato Board
Wheat Foods Council
(http://www.eatright.org/fnce/sponsors02.html; accessed 2/24/03)
In 2002, the ADA entered into a partnership with Gerber Products
Company to form the Start Healthy Nutrition Advisory Panel. The panel
includes both experts from Gerber and ADA.
(http://www.eatright.com/pr/2002/102102.html; accessed 2/24/03)
****
COUNCIL FOR BIOTECHNOLOGY INFORMATION
According to its website, the mission of the Council for Biotechnology
Information is to improve understanding and acceptance of
biotechnology by collecting balanced, science-based information and
communicating it through a variety of channels. The founding member
companies are BASF, Bayer CropScience, Dow, DuPont, Monsanto and
Syngenta and two trade associations, the Biotechnology Industry
Organization and CropLife America.
(http://www.whybiotech.com/index.asp?id=1644; accessed 2/24/03)
***
You've been sold a bill of goods, my friend. The ADA's priority is not
your health, it is the sale of primarily carbohydrate manufactured
foods, and they appear to be specifically targeting you vegetarians.
TC
--
Steve
http://www.geocities.com/beforewisdom/
Be a healthy Vegan or Vegetarian
http://geocities.com/beforewisdom/Veg/healthyVeg.html
"The great American thought trap: It is not real unless it can be seen
on television or bought in a shopping mall"
tcomeau
2004-10-17 03:12:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve
Post by tcomeau
The more important question is who I am not.
No it isn't. You have not given any medical or professional credentials
so that people can evaluate your opinion. You have not even given a name.
Oddly enough, neither has you or the ada.
Post by Steve
The American Dietetic Association is an association of degreed
professionals whose opinion is based on research.
Bwahhhh haaaaaa haaaaa.....
Post by Steve
You can say that the ADA has corporate input but so does the USDA and
many other government orgs but your point is moot.
You just made my point. The fda and the nihs are no less corrupt. And
not any more right.
Post by Steve
The ADA position paper on vegetarianism isn't advocating the foods
produced by the list of companies you quoted.
Look closer.
Post by Steve
You are also not disputing the USDA statements that fit with your
opinion eventhough they have corporate involvement ( a lot more then the
ADA ).
The info I present is specifically not affiliated with people with
corporate. I check these things, don't you.
Post by Steve
In short you are a nameless, credentialist person disputing the
conclusion reached by the research of an association of degreed
professionals.
Degreed is only two letters away from the crux..... greed.
Professional greedy bastards, the lot of them.
Post by Steve
Given the manner and invective of the way you have been experessing your
opinions I would say you are some crank trying to get a rise out of
vegetarians.
Actually, I am trying to inform the poor wayward souls who believe the
vegetarian bullshit that idiots like you try to pass off as science.
If you don't like my tone then tough. If you can't take the heat....
Post by Steve
Your opinion has no basis in facts so at this point it is not even worth
replying to you.
It is based on a great deal more sience than your vegetarian, peta,
pcrm bprne nonsense.
Post by Steve
I'll let you have the last word.
Thank you. Have a good day.

TC
Sansmeat
2004-10-14 18:31:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by tcomeau
Post by Steve
Post by tcomeau
It is indeed a very complex and diverse group of nutrients that we
humans need.
It is not.
Post by tcomeau
I high;y doubt that even the most educated vegetarian can manage a
diet without animal source foods and ensure that they get the optimum
amounts of each essential nutrient. And I know that the typical
vegetarian can't do it and the typical teenage or child vegetarian has
no clue.
The American Dietetic Association contradicts your opinion
http://www.eatright.org/Public/GovernmentAffairs/92_17084.cfm
Who are you? Are you an M.D., an R.D. or otherwise degreed in a health
science/medical related field?
The more important question is who I am not. I am not affilated with
the food and pharma industry. Unlike the American Dietetic Association
whose opinion you value so highly.
***
http://www.cspinet.org/integrity/nonprofits/american_dietetic_association.ht
ml
Post by tcomeau
Non-Profit Organizations Receiving Corporate Funding
Index of Non-Profit Organizations Receiving Corporate Funding
AMERICAN DIETETIC ASSOCIATION
A public policy workshop held in March 2001 was sponsored by American
Soy Products, California Dried Plum Board, Egg Nutrition Center, Food
Marketing Institute, Grocery Manufacturers of America, Kashi, National
Soft Drink Association, Sodexho, and Marriott Services. (ADA Courier,
5/01)
Published a "Biotechnology Resource Kit," which was funded by the
Council for Biotechnology Information." (ADA "Dear Member" letter;
2000)
[See entry for Council for Biotechnology Information]
ADA and DuPont have an agreement that enables ADA to place nutrition
information on the web site http://www.webmd.com/. Dupont is an
investor in WebMD. (ADA Press Release, 10/16/00)
In fiscal year 2000, the following companies contributed $10,000 or
more: BASF Corp., Bristol Myers/Squibb, California Avocado Company,
The Catfish Institute, ConAgra Foods, DMI Management, EcoLab, Galaxy
Nutritional Foods, Gerber Products Company, Kellogg, Knoll
Pharmaceuticals, Lipton, Mars, Inc., Mead Johnson Nutritionals, McNeil
Consumer Products Company, Monsanto, National Cattlemen's Beef
Association, National Dairy Council, National Fisheries Institute,
National Pasta Association, The Peanut Institute, Potato Board,
Procter & Gamble, Roche Pharmaceuticals, Ross Products Division,
Abbott Laboratories, Viactiv, Worthington Foods. (ADA/ADAF 2000 Annual
Report, http://www.eat right.org/; November 11, 2000)
ADA and American Pharmaceutical Association (pharmacists) announced a
joint consumer-education program on supplements; it is funded by
Monsanto Life Sciences Company (press release, 11/8/99).
The ADA co-produced, with funding from the ConAgra Foundation, a
packet of information on food safety titled "Home Food Safety: It's in
Your Hands." (Funding disclosed on packet on file at CSPI, Nov. 1999)
The American Dietetic Association has announced that it will be
seeking to endorse food products (Nov.-Dec. 1997 ADA Courier).
The American Dietetic Association has received funding from numerous
companies and receives underwriting for "fact sheets" on topics
Kellogg, Kraft Foods, Weight Watchers International, Campbell Soup,
National Dairy Council, Nestlé USA, Ross Products Division of Abbott
Labs., Sandoz, Coca-Cola, Florida Department of Citrus, General Mills,
Monsanto, Nabisco, Procter & Gamble, Uncle Ben's, Wyeth-Ayerst Labs.
(Nov-Dec 1996 ADA Courier)
The following companies and organizations sponsored information
sessions at the ADA's 2002 Food and Nutrition Conference, held in
Almond Board of California
American Egg Board/Egg Nutrition Center
Aramark
ADM Kao LLC
Balance Bar Company
ConAgra Foods
DuPont Protein Technologies
General Mills
Gatorade Company
Gerber Products Company
H.J. Heinz
Hormel
Internationl Food Information Council
International Life Sciences Institute
Mars, Inc.
McNeil Nutritionals
MET-Rx
National Cattlemen's Beef Association
National Dairy Council
Pharmavite
Procter and Gamble
Quaker Oats
Ross Product Division
Sodexho Health Care Services
Sysco Corporation
United Soybean Board
United States Potato Board
Wheat Foods Council
(http://www.eatright.org/fnce/sponsors02.html; accessed 2/24/03)
In 2002, the ADA entered into a partnership with Gerber Products
Company to form the Start Healthy Nutrition Advisory Panel. The panel
includes both experts from Gerber and ADA.
(http://www.eatright.com/pr/2002/102102.html; accessed 2/24/03)
****
COUNCIL FOR BIOTECHNOLOGY INFORMATION
According to its website, the mission of the Council for Biotechnology
Information is to improve understanding and acceptance of
biotechnology by collecting balanced, science-based information and
communicating it through a variety of channels. The founding member
companies are BASF, Bayer CropScience, Dow, DuPont, Monsanto and
Syngenta and two trade associations, the Biotechnology Industry
Organization and CropLife America.
(http://www.whybiotech.com/index.asp?id=1644; accessed 2/24/03)
***
You've been sold a bill of goods, my friend. The ADA's priority is not
your health, it is the sale of primarily carbohydrate manufactured
foods, and they appear to be specifically targeting you vegetarians.
TC
As opposed to the FDA whose pockets are lined with money from the
pharmaceutical and chemical companies pushing drugs and other toxic
substances down our throats.

I don't doubt that the ADA would be any different but they certainly are not
being influenced by those mega-corps when they endorse a healthy vegetarian
diet based on fruits, vegetables and whole grains.
tcomeau
2004-10-17 03:03:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by tcomeau
Post by tcomeau
Post by Steve
Post by tcomeau
It is indeed a very complex and diverse group of nutrients that we
humans need.
It is not.
Post by tcomeau
I high;y doubt that even the most educated vegetarian can manage a
diet without animal source foods and ensure that they get the optimum
amounts of each essential nutrient. And I know that the typical
vegetarian can't do it and the typical teenage or child vegetarian has
no clue.
The American Dietetic Association contradicts your opinion
http://www.eatright.org/Public/GovernmentAffairs/92_17084.cfm
Who are you? Are you an M.D., an R.D. or otherwise degreed in a health
science/medical related field?
The more important question is who I am not. I am not affilated with
the food and pharma industry. Unlike the American Dietetic Association
whose opinion you value so highly.
***
http://www.cspinet.org/integrity/nonprofits/american_dietetic_association.ht
ml
Post by tcomeau
Non-Profit Organizations Receiving Corporate Funding
Index of Non-Profit Organizations Receiving Corporate Funding
AMERICAN DIETETIC ASSOCIATION
A public policy workshop held in March 2001 was sponsored by American
Soy Products, California Dried Plum Board, Egg Nutrition Center, Food
Marketing Institute, Grocery Manufacturers of America, Kashi, National
Soft Drink Association, Sodexho, and Marriott Services. (ADA Courier,
5/01)
Published a "Biotechnology Resource Kit," which was funded by the
Council for Biotechnology Information." (ADA "Dear Member" letter;
2000)
[See entry for Council for Biotechnology Information]
ADA and DuPont have an agreement that enables ADA to place nutrition
information on the web site http://www.webmd.com/. Dupont is an
investor in WebMD. (ADA Press Release, 10/16/00)
In fiscal year 2000, the following companies contributed $10,000 or
more: BASF Corp., Bristol Myers/Squibb, California Avocado Company,
The Catfish Institute, ConAgra Foods, DMI Management, EcoLab, Galaxy
Nutritional Foods, Gerber Products Company, Kellogg, Knoll
Pharmaceuticals, Lipton, Mars, Inc., Mead Johnson Nutritionals, McNeil
Consumer Products Company, Monsanto, National Cattlemen's Beef
Association, National Dairy Council, National Fisheries Institute,
National Pasta Association, The Peanut Institute, Potato Board,
Procter & Gamble, Roche Pharmaceuticals, Ross Products Division,
Abbott Laboratories, Viactiv, Worthington Foods. (ADA/ADAF 2000 Annual
Report, http://www.eat right.org/; November 11, 2000)
ADA and American Pharmaceutical Association (pharmacists) announced a
joint consumer-education program on supplements; it is funded by
Monsanto Life Sciences Company (press release, 11/8/99).
The ADA co-produced, with funding from the ConAgra Foundation, a
packet of information on food safety titled "Home Food Safety: It's in
Your Hands." (Funding disclosed on packet on file at CSPI, Nov. 1999)
The American Dietetic Association has announced that it will be
seeking to endorse food products (Nov.-Dec. 1997 ADA Courier).
The American Dietetic Association has received funding from numerous
companies and receives underwriting for "fact sheets" on topics
Kellogg, Kraft Foods, Weight Watchers International, Campbell Soup,
National Dairy Council, Nestlé USA, Ross Products Division of Abbott
Labs., Sandoz, Coca-Cola, Florida Department of Citrus, General Mills,
Monsanto, Nabisco, Procter & Gamble, Uncle Ben's, Wyeth-Ayerst Labs.
(Nov-Dec 1996 ADA Courier)
The following companies and organizations sponsored information
sessions at the ADA's 2002 Food and Nutrition Conference, held in
Almond Board of California
American Egg Board/Egg Nutrition Center
Aramark
ADM Kao LLC
Balance Bar Company
ConAgra Foods
DuPont Protein Technologies
General Mills
Gatorade Company
Gerber Products Company
H.J. Heinz
Hormel
Internationl Food Information Council
International Life Sciences Institute
Mars, Inc.
McNeil Nutritionals
MET-Rx
National Cattlemen's Beef Association
National Dairy Council
Pharmavite
Procter and Gamble
Quaker Oats
Ross Product Division
Sodexho Health Care Services
Sysco Corporation
United Soybean Board
United States Potato Board
Wheat Foods Council
(http://www.eatright.org/fnce/sponsors02.html; accessed 2/24/03)
In 2002, the ADA entered into a partnership with Gerber Products
Company to form the Start Healthy Nutrition Advisory Panel. The panel
includes both experts from Gerber and ADA.
(http://www.eatright.com/pr/2002/102102.html; accessed 2/24/03)
****
COUNCIL FOR BIOTECHNOLOGY INFORMATION
According to its website, the mission of the Council for Biotechnology
Information is to improve understanding and acceptance of
biotechnology by collecting balanced, science-based information and
communicating it through a variety of channels. The founding member
companies are BASF, Bayer CropScience, Dow, DuPont, Monsanto and
Syngenta and two trade associations, the Biotechnology Industry
Organization and CropLife America.
(http://www.whybiotech.com/index.asp?id=1644; accessed 2/24/03)
***
You've been sold a bill of goods, my friend. The ADA's priority is not
your health, it is the sale of primarily carbohydrate manufactured
foods, and they appear to be specifically targeting you vegetarians.
TC
As opposed to the FDA whose pockets are lined with money from the
pharmaceutical and chemical companies pushing drugs and other toxic
substances down our throats.
I don't doubt that the ADA would be any different but they certainly are not
being influenced by those mega-corps when they endorse a healthy vegetarian
diet based on fruits, vegetables and whole grains.
Well, of course they aren't. Heaven forbid that anyone would suggest
that they are soulless greedy bastards, how could they be. The FDA are
faceless bureaucrats, they have to be corrupt, while the ada people
wear white labcoats, they must be the epitome of honesty and
integrity.

Give me a break.

TC
Sansmeat
2004-10-17 12:57:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by tcomeau
Post by Sansmeat
Post by tcomeau
Post by Steve
Post by tcomeau
It is indeed a very complex and diverse group of nutrients that we
humans need.
It is not.
Post by tcomeau
I high;y doubt that even the most educated vegetarian can manage a
diet without animal source foods and ensure that they get the optimum
amounts of each essential nutrient. And I know that the typical
vegetarian can't do it and the typical teenage or child vegetarian has
no clue.
The American Dietetic Association contradicts your opinion
http://www.eatright.org/Public/GovernmentAffairs/92_17084.cfm
Who are you? Are you an M.D., an R.D. or otherwise degreed in a health
science/medical related field?
The more important question is who I am not. I am not affilated with
the food and pharma industry. Unlike the American Dietetic Association
whose opinion you value so highly.
***
http://www.cspinet.org/integrity/nonprofits/american_dietetic_association.ht
Post by tcomeau
Post by Sansmeat
ml
Post by tcomeau
Non-Profit Organizations Receiving Corporate Funding
Index of Non-Profit Organizations Receiving Corporate Funding
AMERICAN DIETETIC ASSOCIATION
A public policy workshop held in March 2001 was sponsored by American
Soy Products, California Dried Plum Board, Egg Nutrition Center, Food
Marketing Institute, Grocery Manufacturers of America, Kashi, National
Soft Drink Association, Sodexho, and Marriott Services. (ADA Courier,
5/01)
Published a "Biotechnology Resource Kit," which was funded by the
Council for Biotechnology Information." (ADA "Dear Member" letter;
2000)
[See entry for Council for Biotechnology Information]
ADA and DuPont have an agreement that enables ADA to place nutrition
information on the web site http://www.webmd.com/. Dupont is an
investor in WebMD. (ADA Press Release, 10/16/00)
In fiscal year 2000, the following companies contributed $10,000 or
more: BASF Corp., Bristol Myers/Squibb, California Avocado Company,
The Catfish Institute, ConAgra Foods, DMI Management, EcoLab, Galaxy
Nutritional Foods, Gerber Products Company, Kellogg, Knoll
Pharmaceuticals, Lipton, Mars, Inc., Mead Johnson Nutritionals, McNeil
Consumer Products Company, Monsanto, National Cattlemen's Beef
Association, National Dairy Council, National Fisheries Institute,
National Pasta Association, The Peanut Institute, Potato Board,
Procter & Gamble, Roche Pharmaceuticals, Ross Products Division,
Abbott Laboratories, Viactiv, Worthington Foods. (ADA/ADAF 2000 Annual
Report, http://www.eat right.org/; November 11, 2000)
ADA and American Pharmaceutical Association (pharmacists) announced a
joint consumer-education program on supplements; it is funded by
Monsanto Life Sciences Company (press release, 11/8/99).
The ADA co-produced, with funding from the ConAgra Foundation, a
packet of information on food safety titled "Home Food Safety: It's in
Your Hands." (Funding disclosed on packet on file at CSPI, Nov. 1999)
The American Dietetic Association has announced that it will be
seeking to endorse food products (Nov.-Dec. 1997 ADA Courier).
The American Dietetic Association has received funding from numerous
companies and receives underwriting for "fact sheets" on topics
Kellogg, Kraft Foods, Weight Watchers International, Campbell Soup,
National Dairy Council, Nestlé USA, Ross Products Division of Abbott
Labs., Sandoz, Coca-Cola, Florida Department of Citrus, General Mills,
Monsanto, Nabisco, Procter & Gamble, Uncle Ben's, Wyeth-Ayerst Labs.
(Nov-Dec 1996 ADA Courier)
The following companies and organizations sponsored information
sessions at the ADA's 2002 Food and Nutrition Conference, held in
Almond Board of California
American Egg Board/Egg Nutrition Center
Aramark
ADM Kao LLC
Balance Bar Company
ConAgra Foods
DuPont Protein Technologies
General Mills
Gatorade Company
Gerber Products Company
H.J. Heinz
Hormel
Internationl Food Information Council
International Life Sciences Institute
Mars, Inc.
McNeil Nutritionals
MET-Rx
National Cattlemen's Beef Association
National Dairy Council
Pharmavite
Procter and Gamble
Quaker Oats
Ross Product Division
Sodexho Health Care Services
Sysco Corporation
United Soybean Board
United States Potato Board
Wheat Foods Council
(http://www.eatright.org/fnce/sponsors02.html; accessed 2/24/03)
In 2002, the ADA entered into a partnership with Gerber Products
Company to form the Start Healthy Nutrition Advisory Panel. The panel
includes both experts from Gerber and ADA.
(http://www.eatright.com/pr/2002/102102.html; accessed 2/24/03)
****
COUNCIL FOR BIOTECHNOLOGY INFORMATION
According to its website, the mission of the Council for Biotechnology
Information is to improve understanding and acceptance of
biotechnology by collecting balanced, science-based information and
communicating it through a variety of channels. The founding member
companies are BASF, Bayer CropScience, Dow, DuPont, Monsanto and
Syngenta and two trade associations, the Biotechnology Industry
Organization and CropLife America.
(http://www.whybiotech.com/index.asp?id=1644; accessed 2/24/03)
***
You've been sold a bill of goods, my friend. The ADA's priority is not
your health, it is the sale of primarily carbohydrate manufactured
foods, and they appear to be specifically targeting you vegetarians.
TC
As opposed to the FDA whose pockets are lined with money from the
pharmaceutical and chemical companies pushing drugs and other toxic
substances down our throats.
I don't doubt that the ADA would be any different but they certainly are not
being influenced by those mega-corps when they endorse a healthy vegetarian
diet based on fruits, vegetables and whole grains.
Well, of course they aren't. Heaven forbid that anyone would suggest
that they are soulless greedy bastards, how could they be. The FDA are
faceless bureaucrats, they have to be corrupt, while the ada people
wear white labcoats, they must be the epitome of honesty and
integrity.
Give me a break.
Did I suggest they were? Can you read? My statement is clear in that by
endorsing "a healthy vegetarian diet based on fruits, vegetables and whole
grains" they have not aligned themselves with any mega-corp and thusly not
to be found biased in that recommendation, in terms you may understand
better - they have nothing to gain! Get it?
magnulus
2004-10-14 03:12:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by tcomeau
It is indeed a very complex and diverse group of nutrients that we
humans need.
I high;y doubt that even the most educated vegetarian can manage a
diet without animal source foods and ensure that they get the optimum
amounts of each essential nutrient.
Why is it that much harder than an omnivore/meat-eater? There are dozens
of different species of plants and fungi
available at a supermarket for a human to eat. There are fewer species of
animals.
Post by tcomeau
And I know that the typical
vegetarian can't do it and the typical teenage or child vegetarian has
no clue.
This is simply not the case. It is true that a vegetarian teenager or
child might require dietary guidance, but this is why there are books on
vegetarian diet planning and cooking. The American Dietetic Assosciation
also has guidelines for vegetarians. Vegetarian diets are generally
somewhat lower in energy than meat-based diets, but, as is being shown by
the government and various other groups... most Americans are getting an
excess of energy, particularly from saturated fats and sugars. OTOH, they
are not eating anything but a small amount of plant-based foods, and often a
very limited selection (it is pathetic that potatoes and onions are
America's top selling vegetables).

If a teenager has problems with a vegetarian diet, it is sometimes the
case for a girl trying to mask an eating disorder. But vegetarian diets in
themselves are not eating disorders, and there is nothing remotely cruel
about feeding a child a vegetarian diet.

Like any other diet, a vegetarian diet with a wide variety of foods is
likely to provide optimum nutrition. What exactly is an optimum diet for
humans is actually unknown, so how can you pretend that a vegetarian diet
cannot be healthy just because it excluds animal flesh?
Wolfbrother
2004-10-14 06:25:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by tcomeau
Post by GMCarter
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 22:27:42 -0400, "magnulus"
Post by magnulus
Post by tcomeau
It is not a concern about the amount of protein, it is a concern about
specific essential proteins
There are 8 essential proteins, right? Well, a vegetarian diet can
provide all of them. What exactly is this mystery protein the vegetarian
diet lacks?
Actually, proteins--and there are millions--are composed of amino
acids. There are an array of 20 amino acids that make up all the
proteins in any body (whether a paramecium, an oak tree or us). Some
the body synthesizes; others need to be acquired from consumed foods
and are thus "essential" amino acids.
Here's a good review.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amino_acid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_amino_acid
The thing to consider is how diverse one's diet is. As a vegetarian,
MOST of these amino acids can indeed be obtained. Otherwise, use of a
supplement like a whey protein may help (especially for cysteine).
George M. Carter
It is indeed a very complex and diverse group of nutrients that we
humans need.
I high;y doubt that even the most educated vegetarian can manage a
diet without animal source foods and ensure that they get the optimum
amounts of each essential nutrient. And I know that the typical
vegetarian can't do it and the typical teenage or child vegetarian has
no clue.
TC
This would be why there are no life long vegan centenarians. A simple
but significant fact. Not to mention that ALL centenarians and super
centenarians eat high quality animal source foods (like full fat
dairy), or have eaten them for the majority of their life. It is
pretty sad how these people try to exist on such an extreme unnatural
diet and pretend that the science and research supports it and yet it
has absolutely no basis in the real world. It is unfortunate that it
takes so many years or even decades for many vegans to realize their
mistake. By then their bodies are usually suffering greatly and who
knows how much damage has been done.
Sansmeat
2004-10-14 12:28:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wolfbrother
Post by tcomeau
Post by GMCarter
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 22:27:42 -0400, "magnulus"
Post by magnulus
Post by tcomeau
It is not a concern about the amount of protein, it is a concern about
specific essential proteins
There are 8 essential proteins, right? Well, a vegetarian diet can
provide all of them. What exactly is this mystery protein the vegetarian
diet lacks?
Actually, proteins--and there are millions--are composed of amino
acids. There are an array of 20 amino acids that make up all the
proteins in any body (whether a paramecium, an oak tree or us). Some
the body synthesizes; others need to be acquired from consumed foods
and are thus "essential" amino acids.
Here's a good review.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amino_acid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_amino_acid
The thing to consider is how diverse one's diet is. As a vegetarian,
MOST of these amino acids can indeed be obtained. Otherwise, use of a
supplement like a whey protein may help (especially for cysteine).
George M. Carter
It is indeed a very complex and diverse group of nutrients that we
humans need.
I high;y doubt that even the most educated vegetarian can manage a
diet without animal source foods and ensure that they get the optimum
amounts of each essential nutrient. And I know that the typical
vegetarian can't do it and the typical teenage or child vegetarian has
no clue.
TC
This would be why there are no life long vegan centenarians. A simple
but significant fact. Not to mention that ALL centenarians and super
centenarians eat high quality animal source foods (like full fat
dairy), or have eaten them for the majority of their life.
The high quality animal source foods they've eaten for a good portion of
their lives did not contain growth hormones or antibiotics. A simple but
significant fact. If I may ask, where are you getting the data that suggests
what "ALL" centenarians and super centenarians are eating?



It is
Post by Wolfbrother
pretty sad how these people try to exist on such an extreme unnatural
diet and pretend that the science and research supports it and yet it
has absolutely no basis in the real world. It is unfortunate that it
takes so many years or even decades for many vegans to realize their
mistake. By then their bodies are usually suffering greatly and who
knows how much damage has been done.
magnulus
2004-10-16 06:54:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wolfbrother
This would be why there are no life long vegan centenarians. A simple
but significant fact. Not to mention that ALL centenarians and super
centenarians eat high quality animal source foods (like full fat
dairy), or have eaten them for the majority of their life.
A few things-

1. Centinnarians often have a genetic makeup for longevity. More than a
few centenarians have even
been cigarette smokers. Your genetics determine in part how long you
will live and how resistant
to disease you can be.

2. Full fat milk is a sure way to an early grave, or at least a life of
misery and drugs for a failing heart. I had this professor that was working
on his second heart attack. Not surprisingly, he loved butter and all sorts
of haute quisine and couldn't live without it, even though it was killing
him literally.

3. Most vegetarians in the US became vegetarians after it became socially
acceptable to do so, and after the consciouness raising of the environmental
movement and the animal rights movement, along with knowledge that high fat
junk diets are bad for you- this happened mostly in the 1960-70's. So of
course you are going to find more centenarian meat eaters than centenarian
vegetarians.
Post by Wolfbrother
It is
pretty sad how these people try to exist on such an extreme unnatural
diet and pretend that the science and research supports it and yet it
has absolutely no basis in the real world.
The American Dietetic Assosciation and dozens of medical studies disagrees
with you.
Granfer Grump
2004-10-16 12:56:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by magnulus
Post by Wolfbrother
This would be why there are no life long vegan centenarians. A simple
but significant fact. Not to mention that ALL centenarians and super
centenarians eat high quality animal source foods (like full fat
dairy), or have eaten them for the majority of their life.
A few things-
1. Centinnarians often have a genetic makeup for longevity. More than a
few centenarians have even
been cigarette smokers. Your genetics determine in part how long you
will live and how resistant
to disease you can be.
2. Full fat milk is a sure way to an early grave, or at least a life of
misery and drugs for a failing heart. I had this professor that was working
on his second heart attack. Not surprisingly, he loved butter and all sorts
of haute quisine and couldn't live without it, even though it was killing
him literally.
3. Most vegetarians in the US became vegetarians after it became socially
acceptable to do so, and after the consciouness raising of the
environmental
Post by magnulus
movement and the animal rights movement, along with knowledge that high fat
junk diets are bad for you- this happened mostly in the 1960-70's. So of
course you are going to find more centenarian meat eaters than centenarian
vegetarians.
Post by Wolfbrother
It is
pretty sad how these people try to exist on such an extreme unnatural
diet and pretend that the science and research supports it and yet it
has absolutely no basis in the real world.
The American Dietetic Assosciation and dozens of medical studies disagrees
with you.
Is this all about the USA again?
Wolfbrother
2004-10-16 21:55:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by magnulus
Post by Wolfbrother
This would be why there are no life long vegan centenarians. A simple
but significant fact. Not to mention that ALL centenarians and super
centenarians eat high quality animal source foods (like full fat
dairy), or have eaten them for the majority of their life.
A few things-
1. Centinnarians often have a genetic makeup for longevity. More than a
few centenarians have even
been cigarette smokers. Your genetics determine in part how long you
will live and how resistant
to disease you can be.
2. Full fat milk is a sure way to an early grave, or at least a life of
misery and drugs for a failing heart. I had this professor that was working
on his second heart attack. Not surprisingly, he loved butter and all sorts
of haute quisine and couldn't live without it, even though it was killing
him literally.
3. Most vegetarians in the US became vegetarians after it became socially
acceptable to do so, and after the consciouness raising of the environmental
movement and the animal rights movement, along with knowledge that high fat
junk diets are bad for you- this happened mostly in the 1960-70's. So of
course you are going to find more centenarian meat eaters than centenarian
vegetarians.
Post by Wolfbrother
It is
pretty sad how these people try to exist on such an extreme unnatural
diet and pretend that the science and research supports it and yet it
has absolutely no basis in the real world.
The American Dietetic Assosciation and dozens of medical studies disagrees
with you.
Ok dupe. Whatever you say. Lets all be like you and not think for
ourselves and accept the lies and distortions of corrupt and immoral
organizations. After all its only our health. Idiot. Every last
word you said was pure stupidity.
Granfer Grump
2004-10-16 22:02:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wolfbrother
Post by magnulus
Post by Wolfbrother
This would be why there are no life long vegan centenarians. A simple
but significant fact. Not to mention that ALL centenarians and super
centenarians eat high quality animal source foods (like full fat
dairy), or have eaten them for the majority of their life.
A few things-
1. Centinnarians often have a genetic makeup for longevity. More than a
few centenarians have even
been cigarette smokers. Your genetics determine in part how long you
will live and how resistant
to disease you can be.
2. Full fat milk is a sure way to an early grave, or at least a life of
misery and drugs for a failing heart. I had this professor that was working
on his second heart attack. Not surprisingly, he loved butter and all sorts
of haute quisine and couldn't live without it, even though it was killing
him literally.
3. Most vegetarians in the US became vegetarians after it became socially
acceptable to do so, and after the consciouness raising of the environmental
movement and the animal rights movement, along with knowledge that high fat
junk diets are bad for you- this happened mostly in the 1960-70's. So of
course you are going to find more centenarian meat eaters than centenarian
vegetarians.
Post by Wolfbrother
It is
pretty sad how these people try to exist on such an extreme unnatural
diet and pretend that the science and research supports it and yet it
has absolutely no basis in the real world.
The American Dietetic Assosciation and dozens of medical studies disagrees
with you.
Ok dupe. Whatever you say. Lets all be like you and not think for
ourselves and accept the lies and distortions of corrupt and immoral
organizations. After all its only our health. Idiot. Every last
word you said was pure stupidity.
I reckon you lost that one Wolfie!
Bill Clinton
2004-10-13 06:52:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by magnulus
Post by tcomeau
It is not a concern about the amount of protein, it is a concern about
specific essential proteins
There are 8 essential proteins, right? Well, a vegetarian diet can
provide all of them. What exactly is this mystery protein the vegetarian
diet lacks?
Err..... that number can be stretched and it's not proteins,
its is amino acids. You're obviously not a chemistry major.
Some so-called non-essential amino acid quite good
for the health.
Post by magnulus
Post by tcomeau
as well as specific essential fats
A vegetarian diet can provide all of them. Flax seed and green leaf
vegetables are good sources of essential fatty acids. The only good
source of essential fatty acids for meat is cold water fish (beef, chicken,
etc., have almost none).
Post by tcomeau
and
specific vitamins that, by definition, are essential.
And, like I said, there's only one vitamin that vegetarians should be
concerned about... and much of our food is already fortified with it
anyways.
B-12
George Russell
2004-10-18 06:43:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by tcomeau
No vegetarian diet can provide all the essential proteins, fats and
micro-nutrients and for idiots to come onto a science forum and try to
say otherwise is plainly ridiculous. Animal source foods are essential
for optimum health.
Please name 1 essential protein, fat or micro-nutrient which cannot be provided
by a vegetarian diet.
tcomeau
2004-10-18 14:17:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Russell
Post by tcomeau
No vegetarian diet can provide all the essential proteins, fats and
micro-nutrients and for idiots to come onto a science forum and try to
say otherwise is plainly ridiculous. Animal source foods are essential
for optimum health.
Please name 1 essential protein, fat or micro-nutrient which cannot be provided
by a vegetarian diet.
Vegetarians run the risk of deficiencies in these specific nutrients
unless they really do their homework and specifically strive to ensure
that their diets contains enough of these from quality sources.
Needless to say, most vegetarians will not have a clue unless they've
been specifically trained in nutrition and cooking and they work
meticulously to ensure that they do get, not just some of these
nutrients, but all of them, and not just a *bit* of them of the
*optimum* amount of them.

Vitamins:
Vitamin B-12
Vitamin B-6
Vitamin D

Amino Acids (Proteins):
Tryptophan
Methionine
Lysine
Isoleucine
Threonine

Minerals:
Calcium
ferritin
zinc

Fatty acids (fats):
linoleic acid
linolenic acid

They may get some of these nutrients but they will be hard pressed to
get the optimum amounts of these nutrients. They will always run the
risk of these deficiencies.

They also run the risk of too much of these substances which are very
unhealthy:
Phytates
oxalates
alpha-amylase inhitors
protease inhibitors
alkylrescorcinols

Look, if you want to be a vegetarian for the purpose of saving animals
and keeping a clear conscience on the animal rights issues, fine, all
the power to you. Just don't go pissing on us and then tell us that
it's raining. Don't try to claim that vegetarianism is a healthy diet,
'cause it most certainly is not. That is a scientific fact.

And don't go imposing vegetarianinsm on children. IMO, that is child
abuse and should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

TC
George Russell
2004-10-18 15:42:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by tcomeau
No vegetarian diet can provide all the essential proteins, fats and
micro-nutrients and for idiots to come onto a science forum and try to
say otherwise is plainly ridiculous.
Please name 1 essential protein, fat or micro-nutrient which cannot be provided
by a vegetarian diet.
Vegetarians run the risk of deficiencies in these specific nutrients
unless they really do their homework and specifically strive to ensure
that their diets contains enough of these from quality sources.
Oh, I see. So you've changed the position you're defending from "No
vegetarian diet can provide all the essential proteins ..." to
"Vegetarians run the risk of deficiencies ... unless they really do
their homework ...".
Post by tcomeau
Needless to say, most vegetarians will not have a clue unless they've
been specifically trained in nutrition and cooking and they work
meticulously to ensure that they do get, not just some of these
nutrients, but all of them, and not just a *bit* of them of the
*optimum* amount of them.
Vitamin B-12
To take the first one (I can't be bothered to deal with the others).
We hear about B12 about three times a week on rec.food.veg. I certainly
agree that vegetarians need to make sure they get enough B12, but there
are plenty of vegan, or at least vegetarian, sources. The ADA position paper
lists several. If you don't like that, you can check the figures on the
FNIC page the US government provides here:
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/etext/000020.html

British people like me can get B12 from Marmite.
Post by tcomeau
Don't try to claim that vegetarianism is a healthy diet,
'cause it most certainly is not. That is a scientific fact.
People who make controversial statements and claim them to be "scientific facts"
are normally supposed to give references to them in the scientific literature.
Post by tcomeau
And don't go imposing vegetarianinsm on children. IMO, that is child
abuse and should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.
I'm afraid your opinion is not worth very much to me, unless you indulge
in more actual scientific facts and less rhetoric.
tcomeau
2004-10-19 13:50:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Russell
Post by tcomeau
No vegetarian diet can provide all the essential proteins, fats and
micro-nutrients and for idiots to come onto a science forum and try to
say otherwise is plainly ridiculous.
Please name 1 essential protein, fat or micro-nutrient which cannot be provided
by a vegetarian diet.
Vegetarians run the risk of deficiencies in these specific nutrients
unless they really do their homework and specifically strive to ensure
that their diets contains enough of these from quality sources.
Oh, I see. So you've changed the position you're defending from "No
vegetarian diet can provide all the essential proteins ..." to
"Vegetarians run the risk of deficiencies ... unless they really do
their homework ...".
Post by tcomeau
Needless to say, most vegetarians will not have a clue unless they've
been specifically trained in nutrition and cooking and they work
meticulously to ensure that they do get, not just some of these
nutrients, but all of them, and not just a *bit* of them of the
*optimum* amount of them.
Vitamin B-12
To take the first one (I can't be bothered to deal with the others).
<snip>

You can't be bothered because you don't know. Why can you morons not
just admit that they don't know something?

TC
Steve
2004-10-19 23:54:34 UTC
Permalink
<snip>

Content free crank. Kill filed.

Steve

Be A Healthy Vegan Or Vegetarian
http://www.geocities.com/beforewisdom/Veg/healthyVeg.html

Steve's Home Page
http://www.geocities.com/beforewisdom/

"The great American thought trap: It is not real
unless it can be seen on television or bought in a
shopping mall"
Piezo Guru
2004-10-20 03:50:00 UTC
Permalink
You are saying you don't know?
Post by tcomeau
You can't be bothered because you don't know. Why can you morons not
just admit that they don't know something?
TC
George Russell
2004-10-20 08:20:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by tcomeau
You can't be bothered because you don't know. Why can you morons not
just admit that they don't know something?
I can't be bothered to attempt serious discussion with someone who has no
response but personal abuse. I have bookmarked tcomeau's last message so
that I can cite it next time he attempts to troll around here.
tcomeau
2004-10-20 17:53:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Russell
Post by tcomeau
You can't be bothered because you don't know. Why can you morons not
just admit that they don't know something?
I can't be bothered to attempt serious discussion with someone who has no
response but personal abuse. I have bookmarked tcomeau's last message so
that I can cite it next time he attempts to troll around here.
If you can't take the heat....

That's ok, don't put up any credible arguments. I can imagine how hard
it is to present credible arguments when you have none to offer.

TC
Sansmeat
2004-10-20 18:17:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by tcomeau
Post by George Russell
Post by tcomeau
You can't be bothered because you don't know. Why can you morons not
just admit that they don't know something?
I can't be bothered to attempt serious discussion with someone who has no
response but personal abuse. I have bookmarked tcomeau's last message so
that I can cite it next time he attempts to troll around here.
If you can't take the heat....
That's ok, don't put up any credible arguments. I can imagine how hard
it is to present credible arguments when you have none to offer.
TC
I've offered several and you curiously haven't responded. Thats typical of
your type though.
Doug Freese
2004-10-20 05:08:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Russell
Post by tcomeau
Don't try to claim that vegetarianism is a healthy diet,
'cause it most certainly is not. That is a scientific fact.
People who make controversial statements and claim them to be
"scientific facts"
are normally supposed to give references to them in the scientific literature.
TC are you back to your silly trolling for Low Carb and everything else
is bad? You promised your psychiatrist you would stop tilting at this
windmill.
.
Post by George Russell
Post by tcomeau
And don't go imposing vegetarianinsm on children. IMO, that is child
abuse and should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.
I'm afraid your opinion is not worth very much to me, unless you indulge
in more actual scientific facts and less rhetoric.
He is all BS and any study you show him, he will claim the were paid off
by some unscrupulous people or organization. He's really sad person
looking for attention.

_DF
Sansmeat
2004-10-18 16:54:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by tcomeau
Post by George Russell
Post by tcomeau
No vegetarian diet can provide all the essential proteins, fats and
micro-nutrients and for idiots to come onto a science forum and try to
say otherwise is plainly ridiculous. Animal source foods are essential
for optimum health.
Please name 1 essential protein, fat or micro-nutrient which cannot be provided
by a vegetarian diet.
Vegetarians run the risk of deficiencies in these specific nutrients
unless they really do their homework and specifically strive to ensure
that their diets contains enough of these from quality sources.
Needless to say, most vegetarians will not have a clue unless they've
been specifically trained in nutrition and cooking and they work
meticulously to ensure that they do get, not just some of these
nutrients, but all of them, and not just a *bit* of them of the
*optimum* amount of them.
The average person unless "specifically trained in nutrition" doesn't have a
clue how to eat properly either. Why do you put such expectations on
vegetarians when there is an epidemic in the US with regards to healthy
eating? Nevertheless, lets examine your list individually and see what we
can find.
Post by tcomeau
Vitamin B-12
RDA: 2.4 mcg/day
Sources: http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR17/wtrank/sr17w418.pdf
Post by tcomeau
Vitamin B-6
RDA: 1.3 mcg/day
Sources: http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR17/wtrank/sr17w415.pdf
Post by tcomeau
Vitamin D
RDA: 5 mcg/day
Sources: Ultraviolet light (ie. sunshine), milk products, eggs
Post by tcomeau
Tryptophan
Methionine
Lysine
Isoleucine
Threonine
RDA: 0.8 g/kg of body weight
Sources: Fermented soy products, quinoa, eggs, milk, cheese

http://www.afpafitness.com/articles/AminosII.htm
http://veggietable.allinfo-about.com/articles/protein.html
Post by tcomeau
Calcium
RDA: 1,000 mg/day
Sources: http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR17/wtrank/sr17w301.pdf
Post by tcomeau
ferritin (Iron)
RDA: 10-18mg/day
Sources: http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR17/wtrank/sr17w303.pdf
Post by tcomeau
zinc
RDA: 8-11mg/day
Sources: http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR17/wtrank/sr17w309.pdf
Post by tcomeau
linoleic acid
RDA: n/a
Sources: http://www.dietobio.com/dossiers/en/fatty_acids/sources.html

http://www.vegansociety.com/html/food/nutrition/e_fatty_acids.php
Post by tcomeau
linolenic acid
RDA: n/a
Sources: http://www.dietobio.com/dossiers/en/fatty_acids/sources.html
Post by tcomeau
They may get some of these nutrients but they will be hard pressed to
get the optimum amounts of these nutrients. They will always run the
risk of these deficiencies.
From the references provided you can see clearly that it is not "hard
pressed" at all.
Post by tcomeau
They also run the risk of too much of these substances which are very
Phytates
oxalates
alpha-amylase inhitors
protease inhibitors
alkylrescorcinols
So can almost anyone, not just vegetarians.
Post by tcomeau
Look, if you want to be a vegetarian for the purpose of saving animals
and keeping a clear conscience on the animal rights issues, fine, all
the power to you. Just don't go pissing on us and then tell us that
it's raining. Don't try to claim that vegetarianism is a healthy diet,
'cause it most certainly is not. That is a scientific fact.
Haven't seen any "scientific facts" yet. You sound like the type of person
that could be shown data all day long and for some reason you wouldn't
believe it. Do you think the majority of Americans are eating a healthy
diet? What makes you think that some fat ass Texan choking down on his 32 oz
steak is more healthy than any vegetarian? Could you not apply all the
alleged deficiencies you state above to just about everyone in the US? You
are examining individual nutrients and trying to apply them specifically to
vegetarians when in fact you could find just as many meat eaters, or more,
with bad diets. I would even venture to guess that vegetarians are more
educated as far as nutrition goes than the average person simply because
they are more concerned about what they eat in the first place.
Post by tcomeau
And don't go imposing vegetarianinsm on children. IMO, that is child
abuse and should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.
TC
And what about parents who subject their children to eating at McDonalds?



Choosing a wide variety of food is healthy. Choosing foods without hormones
or antibiotics is healthy. Choosing foods not contaminated with chemicals is
healthy. Choosing foods grown without pesticides is healthy. Make your
choices from there.
tcomeau
2004-10-19 14:09:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Russell
Post by tcomeau
Post by George Russell
Post by tcomeau
No vegetarian diet can provide all the essential proteins, fats and
micro-nutrients and for idiots to come onto a science forum and try to
say otherwise is plainly ridiculous. Animal source foods are essential
for optimum health.
Please name 1 essential protein, fat or micro-nutrient which cannot be
provided
Post by tcomeau
Post by George Russell
by a vegetarian diet.
Vegetarians run the risk of deficiencies in these specific nutrients
unless they really do their homework and specifically strive to ensure
that their diets contains enough of these from quality sources.
Needless to say, most vegetarians will not have a clue unless they've
been specifically trained in nutrition and cooking and they work
meticulously to ensure that they do get, not just some of these
nutrients, but all of them, and not just a *bit* of them of the
*optimum* amount of them.
The average person unless "specifically trained in nutrition" doesn't have a
clue how to eat properly either. Why do you put such expectations on
vegetarians when there is an epidemic in the US with regards to healthy
eating? Nevertheless, lets examine your list individually and see what we
can find.
Because vegetarians restrict that part of the diet which needs to be
the bulk of their intake for them to be healthy. When you omit the
most important part of your diet, you are virtually guaranteeing poor
health and nutritional deficiencies. Therefore the expectation on
vegetarians is that if they stupidly insist on completely omitting
their best sources of nutrition, then they damn well better know what
they are doing, especially if they are arrogant and stupid enough to
impose this dangerous practice on their children.
Post by George Russell
Post by tcomeau
Vitamin B-12
RDA: 2.4 mcg/day
Sources: http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR17/wtrank/sr17w418.pdf
Post by tcomeau
Vitamin B-6
RDA: 1.3 mcg/day
Sources: http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR17/wtrank/sr17w415.pdf
Post by tcomeau
Vitamin D
RDA: 5 mcg/day
Sources: Ultraviolet light (ie. sunshine), milk products, eggs
Post by tcomeau
Tryptophan
Methionine
Lysine
Isoleucine
Threonine
RDA: 0.8 g/kg of body weight
Sources: Fermented soy products, quinoa, eggs, milk, cheese
http://www.afpafitness.com/articles/AminosII.htm
http://veggietable.allinfo-about.com/articles/protein.html
Post by tcomeau
Calcium
RDA: 1,000 mg/day
Sources: http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR17/wtrank/sr17w301.pdf
Post by tcomeau
ferritin (Iron)
RDA: 10-18mg/day
Sources: http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR17/wtrank/sr17w303.pdf
Post by tcomeau
zinc
RDA: 8-11mg/day
Sources: http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR17/wtrank/sr17w309.pdf
Post by tcomeau
linoleic acid
RDA: n/a
Sources: http://www.dietobio.com/dossiers/en/fatty_acids/sources.html
http://www.vegansociety.com/html/food/nutrition/e_fatty_acids.php
Post by tcomeau
linolenic acid
RDA: n/a
Sources: http://www.dietobio.com/dossiers/en/fatty_acids/sources.html
Post by tcomeau
They may get some of these nutrients but they will be hard pressed to
get the optimum amounts of these nutrients. They will always run the
risk of these deficiencies.
From the references provided you can see clearly that it is not "hard
pressed" at all.
Are those amounts the base minimum needed to survive or are they the
optimum amounts for optimum health? And that is the main fallacy being
progagated by your ilk, that somehow we will be healthy with the
mimimal amounts of these nutrients. That is utter nonsense.
Post by George Russell
Post by tcomeau
They also run the risk of too much of these substances which are very
Phytates
oxalates
alpha-amylase inhitors
protease inhibitors
alkylrescorcinols
So can almost anyone, not just vegetarians.
ESPECIALLY vegetarians. And even more so VEGANS. Those of us who eat
more animal source foods than plant source foods will never run the
risk of over consuming these substances.
Post by George Russell
Post by tcomeau
Look, if you want to be a vegetarian for the purpose of saving animals
and keeping a clear conscience on the animal rights issues, fine, all
the power to you. Just don't go pissing on us and then tell us that
it's raining. Don't try to claim that vegetarianism is a healthy diet,
'cause it most certainly is not. That is a scientific fact.
Haven't seen any "scientific facts" yet. You sound like the type of person
that could be shown data all day long and for some reason you wouldn't
believe it.
I've shown as much scientific facts as you have.

Do you think the majority of Americans are eating a healthy
Post by George Russell
diet? What makes you think that some fat ass Texan choking down on his 32 oz
steak is more healthy than any vegetarian?
Of course not. They eat way too many refined grains products. Too much
hfcs and white flour products. That is why they are obese.

Could you not apply all the
Post by George Russell
alleged deficiencies you state above to just about everyone in the US? You
are examining individual nutrients and trying to apply them specifically to
vegetarians when in fact you could find just as many meat eaters, or more,
with bad diets.
Yes, because they eat too much plant based food too. To much sugar,
hfcs and white flour products. Just not as severely depleted as
vegetarians and vegans. And they don't make it a moral or ethical
point of eating this way, they just do because that is the food
avaolable. Veg-heads go out of their way to make themselves eat this
crap and become unhealthy, and worse yet, they do all they can to
indoctrinate kids into this mis-guided BS.


I would even venture to guess that vegetarians are more
Post by George Russell
educated as far as nutrition goes than the average person simply because
they are more concerned about what they eat in the first place.
More educated, maybe. But the basic beliefs that they use to justify
this nonsense is fundamentally and deeply flawed. They know more big
nutrition-related words than most but they are still wrong.
Post by George Russell
Post by tcomeau
And don't go imposing vegetarianinsm on children. IMO, that is child
abuse and should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.
TC
And what about parents who subject their children to eating at McDonalds?
I would never recomend or support that, especially those that do it
regularly. And two wrongs do do make a right. Although my young child
pointed out to me the other day that three rights make a left.
Post by George Russell
Choosing a wide variety of food is healthy. Choosing foods without hormones
or antibiotics is healthy. Choosing foods not contaminated with chemicals is
healthy. Choosing foods grown without pesticides is healthy. Make your
choices from there.
Choosing animals source foods from healthy animals who have had no
growth hormones or anti-biotic treatments, fed on good healthy natural
feeds and raised in clean, open environments with fresh healthy water
is extremely healthy.

Basing your diet on this kind of animal source foods in infinitly
healthier than any grain-based diet.

TC
Sansmeat
2004-10-19 14:46:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by tcomeau
Post by George Russell
Post by tcomeau
Post by George Russell
Post by tcomeau
No vegetarian diet can provide all the essential proteins, fats and
micro-nutrients and for idiots to come onto a science forum and try to
say otherwise is plainly ridiculous. Animal source foods are essential
for optimum health.
Please name 1 essential protein, fat or micro-nutrient which cannot be
provided
Post by tcomeau
Post by George Russell
by a vegetarian diet.
Vegetarians run the risk of deficiencies in these specific nutrients
unless they really do their homework and specifically strive to ensure
that their diets contains enough of these from quality sources.
Needless to say, most vegetarians will not have a clue unless they've
been specifically trained in nutrition and cooking and they work
meticulously to ensure that they do get, not just some of these
nutrients, but all of them, and not just a *bit* of them of the
*optimum* amount of them.
The average person unless "specifically trained in nutrition" doesn't have a
clue how to eat properly either. Why do you put such expectations on
vegetarians when there is an epidemic in the US with regards to healthy
eating? Nevertheless, lets examine your list individually and see what we
can find.
Because vegetarians restrict that part of the diet which needs to be
the bulk of their intake for them to be healthy. When you omit the
most important part of your diet, you are virtually guaranteeing poor
health and nutritional deficiencies. Therefore the expectation on
vegetarians is that if they stupidly insist on completely omitting
their best sources of nutrition, then they damn well better know what
they are doing, especially if they are arrogant and stupid enough to
impose this dangerous practice on their children.
You sound angry. Whats your real problem? What is "the" most important part
of my diet? I eat a wide variety of foods and I don't think any single food
is "the" most important, they are all part of a healthy diet together. Don't
you agree?
Post by tcomeau
Post by George Russell
Post by tcomeau
Vitamin B-12
RDA: 2.4 mcg/day
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR17/wtrank/sr17w418.pdf
Post by tcomeau
Post by George Russell
Post by tcomeau
Vitamin B-6
RDA: 1.3 mcg/day
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR17/wtrank/sr17w415.pdf
Post by tcomeau
Post by George Russell
Post by tcomeau
Vitamin D
RDA: 5 mcg/day
Sources: Ultraviolet light (ie. sunshine), milk products, eggs
Post by tcomeau
Tryptophan
Methionine
Lysine
Isoleucine
Threonine
RDA: 0.8 g/kg of body weight
Sources: Fermented soy products, quinoa, eggs, milk, cheese
http://www.afpafitness.com/articles/AminosII.htm
http://veggietable.allinfo-about.com/articles/protein.html
Post by tcomeau
Calcium
RDA: 1,000 mg/day
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR17/wtrank/sr17w301.pdf
Post by tcomeau
Post by George Russell
Post by tcomeau
ferritin (Iron)
RDA: 10-18mg/day
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR17/wtrank/sr17w303.pdf
Post by tcomeau
Post by George Russell
Post by tcomeau
zinc
RDA: 8-11mg/day
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR17/wtrank/sr17w309.pdf
Post by tcomeau
Post by George Russell
Post by tcomeau
linoleic acid
RDA: n/a
Sources: http://www.dietobio.com/dossiers/en/fatty_acids/sources.html
http://www.vegansociety.com/html/food/nutrition/e_fatty_acids.php
Post by tcomeau
linolenic acid
RDA: n/a
Sources: http://www.dietobio.com/dossiers/en/fatty_acids/sources.html
Post by tcomeau
They may get some of these nutrients but they will be hard pressed to
get the optimum amounts of these nutrients. They will always run the
risk of these deficiencies.
From the references provided you can see clearly that it is not "hard
pressed" at all.
Are those amounts the base minimum needed to survive or are they the
optimum amounts for optimum health? And that is the main fallacy being
progagated by your ilk, that somehow we will be healthy with the
mimimal amounts of these nutrients. That is utter nonsense.
Those amounts are the RDA, you are familiar with what that is aren't you? I
do not propagte anything, you made statements that were not backed up with
data, I just provided the data. Do you have a problem with the RDA's that
the medical community has set? Where is your data?
Post by tcomeau
Post by George Russell
Post by tcomeau
They also run the risk of too much of these substances which are very
Phytates
oxalates
alpha-amylase inhitors
protease inhibitors
alkylrescorcinols
So can almost anyone, not just vegetarians.
ESPECIALLY vegetarians. And even more so VEGANS. Those of us who eat
more animal source foods than plant source foods will never run the
risk of over consuming these substances.
Explain please....
Post by tcomeau
Post by George Russell
Post by tcomeau
Look, if you want to be a vegetarian for the purpose of saving animals
and keeping a clear conscience on the animal rights issues, fine, all
the power to you. Just don't go pissing on us and then tell us that
it's raining. Don't try to claim that vegetarianism is a healthy diet,
'cause it most certainly is not. That is a scientific fact.
Haven't seen any "scientific facts" yet. You sound like the type of person
that could be shown data all day long and for some reason you wouldn't
believe it.
I've shown as much scientific facts as you have.
Where are they? I can follow this thread all the way back to the beginning
and you haven't provided anything to substantiate anything you have said.
Post by tcomeau
Do you think the majority of Americans are eating a healthy
Post by George Russell
diet? What makes you think that some fat ass Texan choking down on his 32 oz
steak is more healthy than any vegetarian?
Of course not. They eat way too many refined grains products. Too much
hfcs and white flour products. That is why they are obese.
So why not go and blow hot air up their asses for awhile and leave us alone.
Post by tcomeau
Could you not apply all the
Post by George Russell
alleged deficiencies you state above to just about everyone in the US? You
are examining individual nutrients and trying to apply them specifically to
vegetarians when in fact you could find just as many meat eaters, or more,
with bad diets.
Yes, because they eat too much plant based food too. To much sugar,
hfcs and white flour products. Just not as severely depleted as
vegetarians and vegans. And they don't make it a moral or ethical
point of eating this way, they just do because that is the food
avaolable. Veg-heads go out of their way to make themselves eat this
crap and become unhealthy, and worse yet, they do all they can to
indoctrinate kids into this mis-guided BS.
Ya know, the more you talk the more I understand you and what you are about.
Let me tell you sir, its better to remain silent and thought a fool, than to
speak and remove all doubt.
Post by tcomeau
I would even venture to guess that vegetarians are more
Post by George Russell
educated as far as nutrition goes than the average person simply because
they are more concerned about what they eat in the first place.
More educated, maybe. But the basic beliefs that they use to justify
this nonsense is fundamentally and deeply flawed. They know more big
nutrition-related words than most but they are still wrong.
Your defense is crumbling sir....you can do better.
Post by tcomeau
Post by George Russell
Post by tcomeau
And don't go imposing vegetarianinsm on children. IMO, that is child
abuse and should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.
TC
And what about parents who subject their children to eating at McDonalds?
I would never recomend or support that, especially those that do it
regularly. And two wrongs do do make a right. Although my young child
pointed out to me the other day that three rights make a left.
I do hope you are getting professional help.
Post by tcomeau
Post by George Russell
Choosing a wide variety of food is healthy. Choosing foods without hormones
or antibiotics is healthy. Choosing foods not contaminated with chemicals is
healthy. Choosing foods grown without pesticides is healthy. Make your
choices from there.
Choosing animals source foods from healthy animals who have had no
growth hormones or anti-biotic treatments, fed on good healthy natural
feeds and raised in clean, open environments with fresh healthy water
is extremely healthy.
I guess in your delusionary world those things might exist but in the real
world you are going to be disappointed my friend.
Post by tcomeau
Basing your diet on this kind of animal source foods in infinitly
healthier than any grain-based diet.
Okay, bye-bye now.
Post by tcomeau
TC
Larisa
2004-10-18 19:06:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by tcomeau
Look, if you want to be a vegetarian for the purpose of saving animals
and keeping a clear conscience on the animal rights issues, fine, all
the power to you. Just don't go pissing on us and then tell us that
it's raining. Don't try to claim that vegetarianism is a healthy diet,
'cause it most certainly is not. That is a scientific fact.
The scientific data speaks for itself - vegetarians have 36% less
heart disease and a longer life expectancy than meat eaters. What's
your "scientific fact"?

LM
Sansmeat
2004-10-18 20:42:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larisa
Post by tcomeau
Look, if you want to be a vegetarian for the purpose of saving animals
and keeping a clear conscience on the animal rights issues, fine, all
the power to you. Just don't go pissing on us and then tell us that
it's raining. Don't try to claim that vegetarianism is a healthy diet,
'cause it most certainly is not. That is a scientific fact.
The scientific data speaks for itself - vegetarians have 36% less
heart disease and a longer life expectancy than meat eaters. What's
your "scientific fact"?
LM
As well as many other benefits listed here:

http://www.pcrm.org/health/veginfo/vegetarian_foods.html
Hugh
2004-10-18 22:51:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larisa
Post by tcomeau
Look, if you want to be a vegetarian for the purpose of saving animals
and keeping a clear conscience on the animal rights issues, fine, all
the power to you. Just don't go pissing on us and then tell us that
it's raining. Don't try to claim that vegetarianism is a healthy diet,
'cause it most certainly is not. That is a scientific fact.
The scientific data speaks for itself - vegetarians have 36% less
heart disease and a longer life expectancy than meat eaters. What's
your "scientific fact"?
LM
If you have a close look at those studies, you tend to find that they
have been rigged to favour vegetarianism. Often this is done by
ignoring obvious risk factors such as smoking and obesity. For
instance, there was recently a study that purported to show that
eating green leafy vegetables protects against dementia. A group of
nurses were surveyed on their dietary habits, and given some tests to
determine their level of dementia. The study found a much lower rate
of dementia in the vegetable-eaters.

However, the authors of the study had completely failed to take into
account how much the participants weighed, whether they exercised
regularly, and whether they smoked or not. Obesity, smoking and a lack
of exercise are all known major risk factors for dementia. I'm sure if
the survey had taken these risk factors into account, it would have
found that the nurses who ate a lot of green leafy vegetables were
also the ones who exercised regularly, watched their weight and didn't
smoke. In other words, the reason they have less dementia is in all
likelihood simply because they tend to exercise regularly, watch their
weight and don't smoke, rather than because of anything in the
vegetables themselves.
Sansmeat
2004-10-19 00:06:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hugh
Post by Larisa
Post by tcomeau
Look, if you want to be a vegetarian for the purpose of saving animals
and keeping a clear conscience on the animal rights issues, fine, all
the power to you. Just don't go pissing on us and then tell us that
it's raining. Don't try to claim that vegetarianism is a healthy diet,
'cause it most certainly is not. That is a scientific fact.
The scientific data speaks for itself - vegetarians have 36% less
heart disease and a longer life expectancy than meat eaters. What's
your "scientific fact"?
LM
If you have a close look at those studies, you tend to find that they
have been rigged to favour vegetarianism. Often this is done by
ignoring obvious risk factors such as smoking and obesity. For
instance, there was recently a study that purported to show that
eating green leafy vegetables protects against dementia. A group of
nurses were surveyed on their dietary habits, and given some tests to
determine their level of dementia. The study found a much lower rate
of dementia in the vegetable-eaters.
However, the authors of the study had completely failed to take into
account how much the participants weighed, whether they exercised
regularly, and whether they smoked or not. Obesity, smoking and a lack
of exercise are all known major risk factors for dementia. I'm sure if
the survey had taken these risk factors into account, it would have
found that the nurses who ate a lot of green leafy vegetables were
also the ones who exercised regularly, watched their weight and didn't
smoke. In other words, the reason they have less dementia is in all
likelihood simply because they tend to exercise regularly, watch their
weight and don't smoke, rather than because of anything in the
vegetables themselves.
Well there you have it folks, we can all go back to eating meat now because
all the studies that show vegetarianism is healthy have "all been rigged"! I
guess we were all fooled due to a lack of some nutrient we weren't getting
enough of.
Larisa
2004-10-20 19:30:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hugh
Post by Larisa
Post by tcomeau
Look, if you want to be a vegetarian for the purpose of saving animals
and keeping a clear conscience on the animal rights issues, fine, all
the power to you. Just don't go pissing on us and then tell us that
it's raining. Don't try to claim that vegetarianism is a healthy diet,
'cause it most certainly is not. That is a scientific fact.
The scientific data speaks for itself - vegetarians have 36% less
heart disease and a longer life expectancy than meat eaters. What's
your "scientific fact"?
LM
If you have a close look at those studies, you tend to find that they
have been rigged to favour vegetarianism. Often this is done by
ignoring obvious risk factors such as smoking and obesity. For
instance, there was recently a study that purported to show that
eating green leafy vegetables protects against dementia. A group of
nurses were surveyed on their dietary habits, and given some tests to
determine their level of dementia. The study found a much lower rate
of dementia in the vegetable-eaters.
However, the authors of the study had completely failed to take into
account how much the participants weighed, whether they exercised
regularly, and whether they smoked or not. Obesity, smoking and a lack
of exercise are all known major risk factors for dementia. I'm sure if
the survey had taken these risk factors into account, it would have
found that the nurses who ate a lot of green leafy vegetables were
also the ones who exercised regularly, watched their weight and didn't
smoke. In other words, the reason they have less dementia is in all
likelihood simply because they tend to exercise regularly, watch their
weight and don't smoke, rather than because of anything in the
vegetables themselves.
Hence, the Health Food Store Shoppers study, conducted in Great
Britain. They concentrated on only the people who regularly shop at a
health-food store, and compared meat-eaters with vegetarians from that
group. Those people, whether meat-eaters or vegetarians, are much
less likely to smoke, more likely to exercise, more likely to eat
healthy food. In that group, the vegetarians were still much less
likely to die of cardiovascular disease - 36% less likely. Look up
"Oxford Health Food Shoppers Study" on PubMed.

LM
Hugh
2004-10-21 23:35:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larisa
Post by Hugh
Post by Larisa
Post by tcomeau
Look, if you want to be a vegetarian for the purpose of saving animals
and keeping a clear conscience on the animal rights issues, fine, all
the power to you. Just don't go pissing on us and then tell us that
it's raining. Don't try to claim that vegetarianism is a healthy diet,
'cause it most certainly is not. That is a scientific fact.
The scientific data speaks for itself - vegetarians have 36% less
heart disease and a longer life expectancy than meat eaters. What's
your "scientific fact"?
LM
If you have a close look at those studies, you tend to find that they
have been rigged to favour vegetarianism. Often this is done by
ignoring obvious risk factors such as smoking and obesity. For
instance, there was recently a study that purported to show that
eating green leafy vegetables protects against dementia. A group of
nurses were surveyed on their dietary habits, and given some tests to
determine their level of dementia. The study found a much lower rate
of dementia in the vegetable-eaters.
However, the authors of the study had completely failed to take into
account how much the participants weighed, whether they exercised
regularly, and whether they smoked or not. Obesity, smoking and a lack
of exercise are all known major risk factors for dementia. I'm sure if
the survey had taken these risk factors into account, it would have
found that the nurses who ate a lot of green leafy vegetables were
also the ones who exercised regularly, watched their weight and didn't
smoke. In other words, the reason they have less dementia is in all
likelihood simply because they tend to exercise regularly, watch their
weight and don't smoke, rather than because of anything in the
vegetables themselves.
Hence, the Health Food Store Shoppers study, conducted in Great
Britain. They concentrated on only the people who regularly shop at a
health-food store, and compared meat-eaters with vegetarians from that
group. Those people, whether meat-eaters or vegetarians, are much
less likely to smoke, more likely to exercise, more likely to eat
healthy food. In that group, the vegetarians were still much less
likely to die of cardiovascular disease - 36% less likely. Look up
"Oxford Health Food Shoppers Study" on PubMed.
Another thing I forgot to mention is that vegetarians are more often
women than men, so if you do a survey and group the participants into
"vegetarian" and "non-vegetarian", the vegetarian group is going to
have significantly more women in it than the non-vegetarian one. Women
have a much lower risk of heart disease than men, hence the vegetarian
group will show a lower rate of heart disease purely because there are
more women in it. There was at least one famous study I read about
(which might have been the one above), where the supposed lower risk
of heart disease for vegetarians could be entirely explained by this
skewed sex ratio, which hadn't been taken into account by the
researchers.
Post by Larisa
LM
George Russell
2004-10-22 08:13:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hugh
There was at least one famous study I read about
(which might have been the one above), where the supposed lower risk
of heart disease for vegetarians could be entirely explained by this
skewed sex ratio, which hadn't been taken into account by the
researchers.
I don't think it can be, because I think the study Larisa was referring
to was that described in this paper:

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/313/7060/775

which certainly did control for age and sex.
Dunne E. Dawe
2004-10-22 13:15:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hugh
Post by Larisa
Post by Hugh
Post by Larisa
Post by tcomeau
Look, if you want to be a vegetarian for the purpose of saving animals
and keeping a clear conscience on the animal rights issues, fine, all
the power to you. Just don't go pissing on us and then tell us that
it's raining. Don't try to claim that vegetarianism is a healthy diet,
'cause it most certainly is not. That is a scientific fact.
The scientific data speaks for itself - vegetarians have 36% less
heart disease and a longer life expectancy than meat eaters. What's
your "scientific fact"?
LM
If you have a close look at those studies, you tend to find that they
have been rigged to favour vegetarianism. Often this is done by
ignoring obvious risk factors such as smoking and obesity. For
instance, there was recently a study that purported to show that
eating green leafy vegetables protects against dementia. A group of
nurses were surveyed on their dietary habits, and given some tests to
determine their level of dementia. The study found a much lower rate
of dementia in the vegetable-eaters.
However, the authors of the study had completely failed to take into
account how much the participants weighed, whether they exercised
regularly, and whether they smoked or not. Obesity, smoking and a lack
of exercise are all known major risk factors for dementia. I'm sure if
the survey had taken these risk factors into account, it would have
found that the nurses who ate a lot of green leafy vegetables were
also the ones who exercised regularly, watched their weight and didn't
smoke. In other words, the reason they have less dementia is in all
likelihood simply because they tend to exercise regularly, watch their
weight and don't smoke, rather than because of anything in the
vegetables themselves.
Hence, the Health Food Store Shoppers study, conducted in Great
Britain. They concentrated on only the people who regularly shop at a
health-food store, and compared meat-eaters with vegetarians from that
group. Those people, whether meat-eaters or vegetarians, are much
less likely to smoke, more likely to exercise, more likely to eat
healthy food. In that group, the vegetarians were still much less
likely to die of cardiovascular disease - 36% less likely. Look up
"Oxford Health Food Shoppers Study" on PubMed.
Another thing I forgot to mention is that vegetarians are more often
women than men, so if you do a survey and group the participants into
"vegetarian" and "non-vegetarian", the vegetarian group is going to
have significantly more women in it than the non-vegetarian one. Women
have a much lower risk of heart disease than men, hence the vegetarian
group will show a lower rate of heart disease purely because there are
more women in it. There was at least one famous study I read about
(which might have been the one above), where the supposed lower risk
of heart disease for vegetarians could be entirely explained by this
skewed sex ratio, which hadn't been taken into account by the
researchers.
This doesn't really mean much unless you cite the study. I've never
seen a study that doesn't control for gender.
Doug Freese
2004-10-20 05:12:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larisa
The scientific data speaks for itself - vegetarians have 36% less
heart disease and a longer life expectancy than meat eaters.
Please don't confuse facts with a good story. he still believes in the
flat earth theory.

< What's your "scientific fact"?

We have been waiting years for this.

-DF
Daniel
2004-10-20 19:07:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by tcomeau
Post by George Russell
Post by tcomeau
No vegetarian diet can provide all the essential proteins, fats and
micro-nutrients and for idiots to come onto a science forum and try to
say otherwise is plainly ridiculous. Animal source foods are essential
for optimum health.
Please name 1 essential protein, fat or micro-nutrient which cannot be provided
by a vegetarian diet.
Vegetarians run the risk of deficiencies in these specific nutrients
unless they really do their homework and specifically strive to ensure
that their diets contains enough of these from quality sources.
Needless to say, most vegetarians will not have a clue unless they've
been specifically trained in nutrition and cooking and they work
meticulously to ensure that they do get, not just some of these
nutrients, but all of them, and not just a *bit* of them of the
*optimum* amount of them.
Vitamin B-12
This is worldwide problem that has little to do with meat
Meat-eaters who don't supplement suffer from B12 deficiency as well
There was a recent reports about how widespread actually is B12 amonsts
meat-eaters and the whole population
Homocysteine levels (which show if you have enough B12 or you deficient
in it) should be below 9; this is the optimal level
Meat-eaters (who don't supplement) on average have a level of 13
Vegetarians (who don't supplement) on average have a level of 15
Vegans (who don't supplement) on average have a level of 19
Meat-eaters are deficient too, like anyone else and we all should take a
B12 supplement whether we eat tons of pork or not animal foods at all
Post by tcomeau
Vitamin B-6
Vitamin D
This is a problem for anyone who live in cold climate
People in North Europe suffer from vitamin D deficiency even if they
drink milk (where the vitamin is chemically added and not a natural part
of milk)of eat fish
Post by tcomeau
Tryptophan
Methionine
Lysine
Isoleucine
Threonine
All this amino acids are provided by plants
In fact 2500 calories of beans would provide more than our RDA for these
amino acids
-------------------------------------------------------
2500 calories of only beans provide all the essential amino acids one
need without needing to complement with grains or other foods:

-----------------------------------------------------------
(1) (2) (3) (4) (5)
RDA RDA BEANS BEANS
Amino Acid mg/kg mg/70kg mg/100g mg/2000kcal %RDA
Isoleucine 10 700 363 5299 757%
Leucine 14 980 656 9577 977%
Lysine 12 840 564 8234 980%
Methionine 13 910 124 1810 199% <--
Phenylalanine 14 980 444 6482 661%
Threonine 7 490 346 5051 1031%
Tryptophan 3.5 245 97 1416 578%
Valine 10 700 430 6277 897%

What these results show is that eating nothing but beans would result in
obtaining a large excess of every essential amino acid. In spite of the
fact that beans are _relatively_ low in methionine, they are not
_absolutely_ low in methione. Eating nothing but beans would still
provide 2 times the RDA of methionine.
--------------------
This doesn't mean of course that eating nothing but beans is a good
idea, but it would be protein-adequate anyway

What you doesn't seem to consider is that meat protein/calories is not a
so good source of protein and it not so rich in protein
Since we're talking about vegetarians and not vegans maybe it should be
mentioned that eggs are a better source of proteins, vitamin D and
vitamins B12 than meat
Post by tcomeau
Calcium
ferritin
zinc
linoleic acid
LOL What a idiocy
This says a lot about your nutritional knowledge
Vegetarians consume on average 40% fat mostly from nuts, seeds, avocados
and oils
A linoleic acid deficiency is impossible and have nothing to do with
eating or not eating meat
Post by tcomeau
linolenic acid
They may get some of these nutrients but they will be hard pressed to
get the optimum amounts of these nutrients. They will always run the
risk of these deficiencies.
They also run the risk of too much of these substances which are very
Phytates
Phytates are powerful anticancers and antioxidants, they're actually
healthy substance
Although phytic acid content of foods can affect mineral absorption
(less than 15 percent though) phytates are not toxic and they actually
have beneficial properties
They surely not the deadly posions unscientific Paleo Diet books would
like us to believe
Post by tcomeau
oxalates
alpha-amylase inhitors
protease inhibitors
alkylrescorcinols
Come back when you've done your homeworks
LOL... a vegetarian diet deficient in linoleic acid ...ROTFL ...

Daniel
Jan
2004-10-20 19:32:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel
Post by tcomeau
Vitamin B-12
This is worldwide problem that has little to do with meat
Meat-eaters who don't supplement suffer from B12 deficiency as well
There was a recent reports about how widespread actually is B12 amonsts
meat-eaters and the whole population
Homocysteine levels (which show if you have enough B12 or you
deficient
Post by Daniel
in it) should be below 9; this is the optimal level
Meat-eaters (who don't supplement) on average have a level of 13
As far as I know high homocysteine levels among meat-eaters are caused
most often by lack of folic acid, not B12.

Jan
acard
2004-10-20 20:59:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan
As far as I know high homocysteine levels among meat-eaters are caused
most often by lack of folic acid, not B12.
This is probably true in youth and middle age, probably less true
for the elderly, in which the following potential problems exist
for B12 utilization aside from inadequate ingestion:

-failure to separate vitamin B12 from food protein
-inadequate absorption, utilization, and storage
-drug-food interactions leading to malabsorption and metabolic inactivation.

Source--
Vitamin B12 deficiency. Recognizing subtle symptoms in older adults.
Dharmarajan TS, Adiga GU, Norkus EP.
Geriatrics. 2003 Mar;58(3):30-4, 37-8
PMID: 12650116
Roger
2004-10-31 15:56:41 UTC
Permalink
High fibre diet. Advice needed.
I wonder if I could share something with you. I do this in the hope
that you might be able to help me resolve a dietary problem.

I was warden of an open house for a number of years. We ran special
week-ends including all vegey ones. We also had a number of residents
who were vegies. Two things have always stood out in my mind and in
fact now puzzled me. The first was the amount of farting and rifting
that went on. When it came to farting even the women produced some
real thunder flash quality efforts as well as rapid fire ones. Events
well out of the perpetrators control. With up to 30 of them in a
confined space the smell was something else. Choking at times. I used
to dread taking Compline in the small ante-room the smell stuck to
hair and clothes for ages. My first task before going to bed was to
start airing both the Common Room and the Dinning Room. The windows
had to be left open until after 5am. Not even incense could hide the
smell. Even after airing the place I could still taste it.

The second thing which still sticks in my mind was the amount and
characteristics of the brown stuff they produced and the number of
toilet rolls they got through. It was our handy man who drew my
attention to it because the toilets were continually getting blocked.
The stools varied from things resembling baseballs in shape and size
to things which looked like massive turfs of lawn. Hard as rock and
usually in piles of 4 to 5. Some of them lay in the pan right up to
the brim like thick snakes. It took ages to clear them. What really
annoyed me was the grunts, groans, moans and farts which accompanied
the evacuation of their bowels usually in the small hours of the
night. Mind you the most worrying was the brown and bright red smears
up the toilet walls.

(The red meat eating Anglo-Catholic High Church folks were quite
different. Mind you they had bouts of "the scour" when venison was on
the menu.)

I have yet to get a convincing reason for the difference. I'm also not
convinced that this is a natural outcome of eating so much vegetable
material. The problem is now quite acute because my Doctor has advised
me, due to my advancing years, to eat more high fibre foods like veg
and less red meat. Any thoughts on how to control the above problems
would be welcomed. Especially from those of you who have increased
your fibre intake.

Roger.

Adam Becker Sr
2004-10-11 16:01:48 UTC
Permalink
"magnulus" <***@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:<1Gmad.213137$***@bignews4.bellsouth.net>...

Magnulus,

I read your post and some things jump out at me. Recently obsese -
very difficult to lose weight - cravings for carbs.

Sounds a lot like me 9 months ago (5'10", 211 lbs, 48 yr old.) I'm
now down to 177 lbs. Controlling my blood sugar made it possible.

I'm a Type2 diabetic. Have you looked hard at your blood sugars? You
may well be diabetic, or pre-diabetic (Impaired fasting glucose, or
IFG.)

You're without health insurance; even with health insurance you may be
reluctant to have a diagnosis of diabetes or IFG on your chart. If I
were in your shoes I'd get a cheap blood glucose meter (Relion, at
Wal-mart is reputed to be the cheapest 'good enough' meter.) Take
readings for a few days at:
* First thing after awakening.
* One hour after each meal, especially any high carb meals.
* Right before bedtime.

If you're really broke, and if you know a diabetic (believe me, you
do, whether you know it or not) you might borrow a meter (USE A NEW
LANCET!) Many of us have more than one.

If ANY of your readings are above 140, come on over to
alt.support.diabetes with more questions. The silver lining is that
IF you're insulin resistant, then there's a drug, metformin. Among
it's virtues are that
* it's cheap
* it has very few side effects.
* it's been in use for more than 20 years, so its side effects are
well known.
* it will improve your blood sugars and lessen the chance of the
HORRIBLE complications that high blood sugars cause.
* it makes weight loss much easier.

Also, many of us find that once you get your blood sugars in control,
the carbohydrate cravings are VASTLY lessened. (Sure was true for
me.)

There have been several how-to threads recently in a.s.d. on eating
diabetic-friendly meals cheaply.

Adam Becker
magnulus
2004-10-12 01:43:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Becker Sr
I read your post and some things jump out at me. Recently obsese -
very difficult to lose weight - cravings for carbs.
When I was around 23 or so, I wasn't overweight. I was not an
overweight kid growing up.
The drug I was taking was depakene, and it made me hungry all the time and
lethargic, I believe. After my knee injury, of course, I spent alot of time
resting and almost no physical activity for a while, and people do stupid
stuff like give me lots of food during the winter (holidays always do me in,
because people eat way too much food at thanksgiving etc.). I took
chondroitin for months and it seemed to help.
Post by Adam Becker Sr
I'm a Type2 diabetic. Have you looked hard at your blood sugars? You
may well be diabetic, or pre-diabetic (Impaired fasting glucose, or
IFG.)
I don't know about my blood sugar. My grandmother's side of the family
has diabetes in old age, other than that, it really doesn't run in the
family. Some of my very old relatives do have angina and heart disease.
But all of them are very old, and they got it later in life and are
overweight.
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